[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Live Ultralight Podcast. Powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today, we're gonna be talking about a new product release over here at Outdoor Vitals. We have the Expanse sleeping bag. So in this episode, we got Brigham. We designer on the show to really walk us through the backstory of the product. What the product solves, you know, why we developed it and then get into the testing and launch of this product. So these are always super fun ones, highly listen to. And it's fun to just get into the the nitty-gritty of the products themselves. Obviously, since we're spending months and years and the design process of this, it's always fun to get things to the Finish Line. Have the release and get to finally share a lot more details with you guys. So Brigham, how we doing today?
[00:00:48] Brigham: A broad better than myself and I'm a little hoarse and raspy cough, but I actually feeling better and have been the last few days. So other than that, doing pretty well. Finally stopped raining and snowing.
[00:01:01] Tayson: Yeah.
[00:01:01] Brigham: But That's good to be in the fall season.
[00:01:05] Tayson: Yeah, we got the effects of the storms coming up through California up into our neck of the woods and it's definitely Cool things off a lot, added some snow on the mountains, and may change some plans for some of the company chairs, we were planning to do. We'll see if those are still going to be possible or not, but Yeah, I don't know. I'm hearing rumors that it could be a wet winter and it's something we could definitely use around here. So
[00:01:33] Brigham: we sure could
[00:01:35] Tayson: okay, well, Man, Expanse sleeping bag. I think this is a piece that I mean, I'm just excited because I think a lot of people will say this. So let's pieces that at first, you might not always Realize what you're missing out and then you get this and you use it. And you see, How it all fits into your system and it's hard to unsee it. Like it's like, for me, it's been hard to like not just use it exclusively because of how much I personally enjoy the bag and so yeah, I'm excited to to get into the nuts and bolts of this but I guess to back up all the way back to the beginning of this. You know what, we're some of those original questions that we started asking that. Pushed us into putting real time and energy and resources into this development.
[00:02:33] Brigham: Yeah. kind of the initial spark that got me going was more like Kind of a singular. Frustration point. that but it but it did then it leads to other questions of well if this then you know, fill in the blank if we're doing that then fill in the blank and you know, it does lead to lots of questions that really kind of funnel into You know, shaping the concept of any product. So, you know. I had. Been on a multi-day trip by myself in the mountains and it was like the first night of the trip. I just was behind schedule and got into where I was going to set up my tent and go to bed late at night. So, you know, I kind of bypassed eating any dinner and was just feeling tired and, you know, that feeling of just wanting to go to bed and still hadn't eaten. So I just remember, you know, for me, I very consistent top quilt user, a very happy with, with our top quilt, for all the benefits for that a top quilt offers.
[00:03:47] Brigham: But as I was, you know, I got my 10 set up and I was blown on my pad and then, You know, I get kind of like the shakes when I haven't eaten for hours and it's like, you know, you spend it a lot of energy. so, I'm up here up, high in the mountains and It was well past dark, probably 10 p.m. or something like that. And I get my top quilt out and I was frustrated, you know, having to deal with, you know, you know, forgetting to put the straps on and then getting the straps on while I've got, you know, all my gear laid out in the tent and you know, the bad straps, that connect to the pad and to the top quilt and And I yeah, I was pretty frustrated and just add, you know, the feeling of the thoughts as it just like I just want to go to bed and I just wish I could. not have to hassle with this right now and that was That was a profound.
[00:04:43] Brigham: you know, thought process for me, because I have always enjoyed using a top quilt and So, I kind of dwelled on that and gave thought to a wife. This one experience, you know, out of hundreds is now leading me to think about this and what other, you know, why I kind of like pulling on threads like, why am I Filling this way. And okay, if I'm feeling this way, is it? You know, like I'm a guy I would say I'm a my preferences are towards the top quilt, but if I'm experiencing this, then it just started making me. Think about other people's preferences, what other people's you know? You know, maybe maybe physical ailments or just different ways that people might prefer to sleep. and I kind of just the immediate thought was just like, okay, This is where a sleeping bag would be really nice. So I just throw it down on the sleeping pad and crawling and go to bed. You know, I mean forget eating dinner, just go to bed.
[00:05:42] Brigham: you know, and that's, that's maybe a 60 second process, but tell you that time when I was, Shaky and tired and want to go sleep like 60 seconds was making me pretty frustrated.
[Editor’s note: Skipping dinner while shaky and exhausted is a personal account, not recommended backcountry practice. Address food, hydration, warmth, and worsening symptoms rather than treating sleep as a remedy.]
[00:05:55] Brigham: So
[00:05:55] Tayson: yeah,
[00:05:56] Brigham: you know, I thought, well, if you know, there's already sleeping bags out there like that's not that's not a solution, you know? I mean, it's just like an alternative but If? You know, what are the other things? You know sometimes got me thinking of water. What are other things that maybe I have experienced from time to specialize as I've gotten older in top quilts and kind of started taking mental inventory is from things and started. The thought process of okay, if we're going to do something about this, if we're going to offer something, that is an alternative to a top quilt for people with different preferences. What type of preference is like sleep Habits. Like that's a big one. I'm a side sleeper. I toss and turn a lot. It's never been a problem in the top quilt, but you know, we do here from people that for whatever reason, topicals don't work for them. That's fine. And some people just sleep differently and just started asking those questions, like what? Were people sleeping behaviors. Okay, so then what does that mean for? This thing that we're going to create, right?
[Editor’s note: The clause “topicals don’t work for them” is unclear in the transcription. The surrounding discussion concerns people whose sleep preferences do not suit top quilts; the exact noun is not established by the two decodes.]
[00:07:03] Brigham: And obviously, the whole objective is to Improve it people's experience in the mountains, especially their sleeping experience.
[00:07:12] Tayson: Yeah. I mean that's been a topic that mean you have talked on and off the last couple years we talked like, you know, I'm a personal level, we've kind of talked about like man like been struggling to get better sleep, you know, we get a little bit older and maybe we're more finicky with our sleep and then So for us, we spend a lot of nights in sleeping bags and Tents and top quilts every single year, you know, usually 30 plus nights a year. And so when you start factoring that in, it just if you're not getting really good sleep in the backcountry that starts to add up and and so we just kind of had conversations we've we've had a lot of conversations around trying different pads out but have hit the market and be like oh you know, this thicker pad or this and and just trying to dial in a few things to get like really maximize sleep, you know? There's sometimes it's all about maximizing weight and sometimes you start to realize that maximizing quality sleep or another aspect of the trip.
[00:08:07] Tayson: Can Start to rank higher in your list of priorities. And so we've talked a lot about Sleep, Quality, Sleep Quality. And then We kind of came into this. Thing of like, man. How do we just what if we were gonna design a bag that was A specifically built for like the maximum Sleep Quality in the backcountry, but ruralite Backpackers like what could that potentially look like? And you know, mixed with with, you know, our, you know, sometimes you don't want to fiddle with pad straps or or just sometimes you just don't want to draft, you know, when you roll over from the, from the data, I've seen, most people are side sleepers, which means you're you're rolling from one side to the other and and a top quilt. You know, there's there's concerns with that where you can get a draft or, you know, you're adjusting pad straps and and things like that. So, that was kind of the premise of this like man, how we just get the best Ultra sleep in the back country, less than amount of like fiddle Factor, the least amount of potential things to have any concerns about
[00:09:05] Brigham: yeah.
[00:09:06] Tayson: And so we started Drop more ideas.
[00:09:11] Brigham: Yeah. It's I mean, I was just thinking of a budgets and like some soft and some of these decisions are very similar to budgeting but like I just thought like okay what are the the bear like the most Bare Bones conceptual things is just like something simple because that was the pain point that like just simple thoughtless spacious comfortable. and, you know, Lightweight, you know what I mean? It's so like if you strip everything away like that's what we're kind of going after and then but then that that leads to questions that lead to decisions and kind of going back to like budgeting it's like well it's not unlimited spending, so it's not just you know that this sleeping bag can have all the things and be you know so big and and certain things like that you we want to make every decision be calculated and Essentially. Have. Just such a simple comfortable, spacious sleeping bag that we could still. feel good about taking on any trip because it was not heavy because it was very Deliberately. Designed to to still minimize weight, everywhere. We could buy it while offering all of these things.
[00:10:36] Tayson: yes, so we kind of knew I wanted to Dabble in the sleeping bag world and see what we could we could spin up, right? So Maybe he's kind of list off some of the thought process of like okay well what are some things we want to test? What are some things we want to try, where we could take a sleeping bag. Keep the super light but add in you know the lack of fiddle factor and add in better quality sleep.
[00:10:59] Brigham: Yeah. um, well, I mean one of the What one way that, you know, one of the ways that I kind of looked down? It was, what are some things that we hear from people? Because we don't come from a place of the top quilt is the only acceptable sleep system on the planet and it will suit. Everybody's needs. That's just our top bolt is one offering that we have, right? So from the people that we listen to that, maybe have some feedback on the top quilt that we offered. You know, sometimes that's they will perform a room or like in the foot box more leg room, they'd like to build this spread their legs out a little bit, you know, kind of sprawling within the sleeping bag a little bit.
[Editor’s note: The clause “our top bolt is one offering” is unclear; the two decodes disagree on the noun. The surrounding discussion contrasts the company’s top-quilt offering with other sleep systems.]
[00:11:44] Tayson: From an approachability standard. We hear those things a lot. In fact, it's almost Clockwork that when we bring in Maybe someone new into the office and bring him out on a trip. They almost always take a sleeping bag on their first trip, you know, and it's just because it's approachable. It's it's like there's less concern. There's less, you know, and think about, hmm.
[00:12:06] Brigham: They feel more secure in it.
[00:12:07] Tayson: Yeah, I think.
[00:12:08] Brigham: Yeah. Um, you know, another and then like in by my own personal experience every once in a while and especially, you know, the more recent years every once in a while, I'll get, you know, my hips will feel tight like, when I in the middle of the night, when I sleep that so, that kind of got me thinking about How space this? Can we make this thing and still you know, keep it keep it very reasonable, keep it very lightweight and and that that leads to decisions other decisions to make well If we're going to just kind of really blow this thing up in the foot box, or make it really spacious. Well that's all, you know, more fabric. More materials more down. That's going to have to go in there to fill in that space. And then what do we do then? So that this thing's just isn't getting out of control, right? Like it's just not you know, it's not adding Oz after Oz after Oz, it's you know. Let's add a little bit of where can we? Mitigate or reduce weight as much as possible.
[00:13:16] Brigham: And one of those things was like, Hey, like if we know people love top quilts because we love ourselves and we sell a lot of top quilts, and it doesn't take much time to just kind of do a little bit of research on the internet to see the wildlife Backpackers are using topicals. You know what I mean? There's plenty of data out there. So one of the characteristics of a top quilt that people obviously, like, is that it doesn't have a hood, you know, their top goals in and of themselves are pretty unrestricted because of that, like they're open on the bottom. They don't have a hood. And so, like that was an area that I thought, maybe that's maybe that's a place where we can. Mitigate some to eight materials is this thing doesn't necessarily have to have a hood. Is it could we get a good quality of sleep? Could we have tons of room in the sleeping bag and still be warm and comfortable without a hood? And so that will like really entered the equation seriously. And that was like, I mean, that was the first prototype was that way?
[Editor’s note: The clauses “wildlife Backpackers are using topicals” and “their top goals” are unclear. The two decodes do not agree on their exact wording. The surrounding discussion concerns hoodless top quilts; no claim about a particular backpacker population is established here.]
[00:14:18] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean once you've slept without a hood, you realize, I mean, in my opinion, it's like I, I enjoy not having a hood, then it because then I can just do exactly what I want for my head because trips are different sometimes. I want a beanie, sometimes I want nothing. Sometimes I want a full ballet and because of you using top quilts so much, you like that's been in the equation for a while now and it's much more efficient. To use a ball of an entire Hood there. The one time you might want to cinch it down, that makes sense. It's Cheaper, it's lighter. It's it's just Yeah, so so that made a lot of sense. So the very first prototype really, you know, let's let's skip the hood, I think I mean we can Circle back to all the benefits of that later, but so that was one of the original things we wanted to try. I mean on those first prototypes too, like started with, you know, less zipper than Some sleeping bags out there. Yeah, maybe a zipper. Wait
[Editor’s note: The head-insulation clauses “a full ballet” and “To use a ball of an entire Hood” are unclear in the transcription. Both decodes suggest a balaclava but disagree on the complete hood-comparison wording. Separately, the product documentation lists a beanie, jacket hood, or balaclava as head-insulation options; this is context, not a reconstructed quotation.]
[00:15:17] Brigham: yeah.
[00:15:19] Tayson: But we also, you know, because we wanted we wanted a more roomy bag we wanted the ability to spread move. And so yeah, we're looking, we're looking at these potential trade-offs.
[00:15:32] Brigham: kind of like maybe, like just like sort of Bridging the Gap. Between, maybe somebody that is familiar with using a top quilt and then changing to a sleeping bag because maybe they're like me and they're getting older and everyone else while they're hips get tight. It's just for whatever reason they might have had an okay, or good experience with the top quilt. But They're circumstances changes, their preferences might change their sleeping behaviors, might change it. So maybe we can Brazil the Gap and have some like top quilt elements to it. But Bring in some of the Simplicity we're after and spaciousness.
[00:16:05] Tayson: I mean, one of the issues I have is like, I've, I've learned obviously the Sleep Inn mummy bags and tops and I, I do say I learned to because You know, when you first start doing it, you don't necessarily love it, you don't necessarily feel as comfortable. but some of the experiences I've been having is that like I've had a lot of situations where it's too hot, like it's getting too hot, and with its top culture, or mummy bag, one of the ways that you can cool off a little bit, is just spreading out your limbs, a little spreading, your legs, a little. Because, like, you get really hot down there on your legs and your groin area, and it can't really spread your legs at all. That's a, it's a point of discomfort. And I mean, it's part of why I like in our Highline thermals. We use like a mesh on the inside of the crotch area because that's an area where you really want to eventually if you're sleeping a lot and in those kinds of thermals. And so, Yeah, having that space gives you some level of flexibility. Still that.
[Editor’s note: The clause “with its top culture, or mummy bag” is unclear in the transcription; the two decodes do not establish the exact comparison wording. The surrounding passage concerns room to spread the legs when sleeping hot.]
[00:17:06] Tayson: That sometimes on a trip, just is the difference between It's just a little hotter than we plan and and now I'm trying to like figure out the best way to vent but not vent too much to the point that I might get colder. Yeah, just some things like that too, but so we've we want our spacious bag, we want something that was You know, a sleeping bag. So I didn't have other potential things to fiddle with or concerns there. But we are, ultralight Backpackers we want this to be as light as possible and we have Recent a little bit more on the more recent years, been starting to dabble with Muscovy down and the ability to move to 850 900, fill power downs. And so it made a lot of sense for this product too. To be like man, we're adding materials, we're adding size and so let's let's try this in a 900. Fill power product as well.
[00:18:00] Brigham: Yeah, yeah. I mean because the sleeping bag, Has to keep us warm for the conditions that we're in. So you make a sleeping bag, bigger, you need to put more down in it, more down equals more weight and you know, our Current and previous sleep systems. We've we've used 800, fill power down forever and it's it's great product. But again, we're trying to We're trying to add and then take away where we can. So made a bigger wanted to make sure it's warm enough and so we need to put the right amount of down in it and we want to do that offset the additional down by the By putting a higher fill power down in it so we didn't necessarily need to put a substantially larger amount of down in it. We get the same amount of warmth for Less down. So yeah, the choice to use a 900 film Muscovy down and Muscovy down. We have just been pressed with. We use it in other like one of our jackets, and, If we have tested it obviously in this the Expanse for a couple years now it's it's great.
[00:19:10] Brigham: So that was that was a very appropriate choice for for this piece.
[00:19:14] Tayson: Yeah. so I guess just kind of moving this story forward, we get to First prototypes and well, I guess the other thing is just like, okay, well, if you make
[00:19:28] Brigham: If you create more room in the sleeping bag, you can't just offset that by putting more down in it essentially, right? Like that there's no amount of down you can put in in the sleeping bag that will just Fill in actual empty space, right? So from let's say like I don't know like the mid thigh or the knee to the end of the foot, it's substantially wider than the our top quilt most sleeping bags I would say. And so that is all space. that we need to make sure can the sleeper warm. So the body is the heat source and if you have too much space those become cold spots, really they become there's room for air to move around and draw heat away from our body. And so we needed a solution for that. Let's say essentially for conditions, where the temperatures may be got colder than expected because we're putting the appropriate amount of down for the size of the foot box and intended, temperature ranges. But if the temperatures again, we're just colder than expected. Then the amount of down would not be adequate.
[00:20:42] Brigham: So then like thinking ahead, well what do we do that? And I think that's where you were going as like. Yeah, that's when we said it, okay. What if we can just kind of reduce some of the in the average internal volume in that lower half of the sleeping bag. If we can just reduce the average internal volume, you know, I don't know, like, sit 10 20% maybe like that's the that You know, will help or mitigate that extra space? So what if we can just kind of take up some of that extra space so when it is colder than expected then you know problem solved. and so that solution was well, how do we do that? How do we do that with the highest probability of success? And the factor there is like, well, if you're gonna reduce the internal, volume the adjustability, We don't want to be compressing the down because that would be counterproductive. It would basically cancel itself out.
[00:21:38] Brigham: So you don't want to just say, oh, I'll just put some cinch cords on the outside and cinch it down because that compresses the down from the outside and you know reduces The Loft measuring essentially so that The down really isn't doing much for you. So yeah, we just designed it. So there were a couple internal cinch cords that go all the way around the inside layer of the sleeping bag. So, as you sense them down, they're just taking up some internal volume. And I'd say like, I wouldn't say 100% it eliminates any potential compression, but it Almost a non-issue, you gain more warmth by bringing in the internal volume. Then you lose by the tiny margin of down compression because it's just, yeah, it's like constricts a circle from the inside and so everything on the outside just kind of follows it and that that Loft level pretty much stays the same So yeah, we did that.
[Editor’s note: The cinch-cord discussion describes a design intention, not a guaranteed temperature extension. Choose insulation and a sleeping pad for expected conditions with a margin; adjustment cannot make an inadequate sleep system safe.]
[00:22:42] Tayson: Yeah I mean I think so this is actually an interesting thing because for many many years we've bounced around ideas of like expanding and Contracting sleeping bags and how we could potentially do that without any compression of of insulation or minimal compression of installations possible. In fact I dug through some of the archives. One of the very very first things that Brigham ever worked on was this? Sleeping bag that that had some adjustment from underneath. I mean, it's a whole different product, but the concept was the same that you could expand this sleeping bag when you just want the most amount of space. But if it's cold out, you can shrink the size of that sleeping bag and therefore make it more thermally efficient. on an example, I like to give to try to illustrate this is let's say you have the same size of heater but it's off the same amount of output and that is, you know, It that is your body in a situation but let's say you're in your house and you've got a heater if you want to heat up.
[00:23:38] Tayson: If you want to stay warm, do you take that heater into the largest room in your house? Your family room and turn it on, and try to heat up your entire family room, or you take it into the smallest room in your house and turn on the same heater, same heater, but you're gonna heat up that small room even though this this house has the same insulation around the entire exterior, by taking it into the smaller room that heater can actually have an impact and heat up that small room versus trying to heat up your entire family room with some little heater, right? So that's the concept is if we can shrink the internal size of the sleeping bag, it's more the less space to heat up inside of there. And so that was the goal is okay, well, we want the most comfortable sleep in the back country, which means we want the space. But I can tell you from experience when it is cold outside. You are not, spreading out your sleeping bag, your like, shrinking up your wading into a ball on the most.
[00:24:29] Tayson: And so we want to just the ability for the bag, to expand contract and, and adapt to conditions. And so we we came up with this this concept of this inner draw chord system. that is extremely light, but gives you that ability to pull in the inner the inside of the bag, tighter to you and has Almost no down compression. Now you can get some back compression especially if you are like pulling a ton of volume out of the inside of the bag, you start to see it like and you may even see a video or excuse me, a picture or something like that from us, where we've turned the bag inside out and tried it. Like because it's a hard thing to Showcase or we pull them extremely tight. You might see a little bit of dimpling or something like that on the outside of the bag. But overall, you can really shrink a ton of space out of the bag with no compression in the way that we've done it. So it was a way.
[00:25:20] Tayson: I mean, super happy with with that but that was something that was I was in the original photo too, right?
[Editor’s note: The heater comparison is an illustration, not a measured warmth guarantee. Avoid tightening the bag enough to compress insulation or restrict comfortable movement.]
[00:25:26] Brigham: Yeah. First prototype. I mean yeah, that's a good thing because the first prototype was huge. Oh, it was way bigger than it ended up being. But yeah, that was I mean that was a concept as if we're going to have this extra space. We want to have some margin for error and the temperature range like just like I said that they could be a really Easy adjustment for somebody to make and yeah, I would just reduce that internal space and help help him stay warm sleep. Well,
[00:25:57] Tayson: yeah, We've gotten used to having some adjustability and a top quilt. And so coming. Good back to it, a different type of Bagley, and I just want to give that up and so,
[Editor’s note: The complete clause ending “I just want to give that up and so” is unclear in the transcription. Neither bounded decode establishes a missing negation. The surrounding design discussion supports retaining adjustability, not giving it up; the original words remain preserved rather than inserting a guessed negation. The continued temperature-margin claim describes a design intention, not measured extra rated protection. Reducing internal volume does not establish additional temperature protection or make an inadequate sleep system safe. Choose the bag, pad, and other insulation for the person and forecast with an appropriate margin.]
[00:26:07] Brigham: yeah.
[00:26:08] Tayson: So we yeah, we sample this thing, we get it, we build one and or a couple and take him out there and Yeah. Well we're I mean, how do you feel like that the process went from there?
[00:26:20] Brigham: You know, I think it was it went well because it was, Kind of like a. Let's just see how this goes. And see if this has validity. And yeah, we did and we even had some external help in this just so we could get more people sleeping in it, like, right away and that was really the number one question is, is, does this entire concept have validity? Are we comfortable? Is it simple to use? Are we sleeping well in is it warm enough? The warm enough thing is generally a pretty simple fix. It's either you reduced the internal volume or you put more down in or both, you know what I mean? And so I mean the first prototype like I said like I just mentioned like it was it was very white. I started out with that kind of like this is the upper limit like this is Let's just bracket this process. So start with the widest foot box that. I think he would possibly find reasonable and go from there.
[00:27:23] Brigham: And after the first prototype was like, okay, I think we could make this a little a little more tapered because it was it was really was very large.
[00:27:33] Tayson: Um, yeah. What are some of those initial testers? You know, external testers have to say, I guess when they got their hands on
[00:27:41] Brigham: essentially, you know, that the, that the the Simplicity. Concept was was valid. It was, it was simple to use. And one of the things in that Simplicity that that I wanted to do from the, from the get-go was make it so this It doesn't matter. What which way is up, you know, there's no top side or bottom side. So from top to bottom, The down is going to be just distributed the same way. So it like again, I was I would just rewind to that experience. Will, I don't even want to think about, did I put this on the sleeping pad correctly or not or any of that? So just Put it down, whichever way it falls and you're gonna be equally warm either way, you know, or what if the best deals on the other side. Like just things like that were making that simple so that I'd say the the feedback there was was positive. It was validating.
[00:28:43] Brigham: the I'd say the the down chamber layout was It was new a little bit new for, you know, compared to some other things, but it was kind of a carryover from how we've done our recent top quilts. So making sure down is keeping us warm stand, where we want it to That was good. The. you know, the internal draw cord thing. It was functionally. Worked functionally worked. We learned some things like even in its most relaxed or unrestricted. Position the initial drawers were too thick in that if you moved around and your your leg your knee, just even bumped that draw cord Channel. You would feel that like Almost solid tension of of the internal draw cord. So we immediately change that to an elastic one and but we, you know, refined that further over different iterations. But that was like, one thing that that's out, I was like, oh, okay, we need. This is, it works it functions, but it needs refinement. We don't want it to be a distraction distractions, even in sleep, or subconsciously lead to disrupted sleep.
[00:30:09] Brigham: the yeah, the foot box was very large, you know, I think some of the external feedback was that it was that it did end up being a little colder than expected, and they noticed some, you know, issues with not being quite warm just because it was just so big. Let's see. I mean, those are the main ones. And the one thing we've really also learned on that first one Towards the top of the sleeping bag or the, the head area of the sleeping bag. It tapers. And that first prototype team were very dramatically and the purpose of that is so it just essentially preemptively. Cinches the the the the top of the sleeping bag, so you're not actually having to cinch it, it just makes the opening smaller. Because you're going to cinch it up. Anyways so removing some of that weight of materials and then it all helps the sleeping bag just kind of hug you around the neck a little bit but it was it was too narrow at the top and that that really narrow term where the zipper you know comes up above the shoulder towards the head.
[00:31:19] Brigham: It was a very tight turn and it you know it made the zipper difficult to manipulate from the inside
[00:31:27] Tayson: to like get fully zipped up because it would kind of catch on that curve point.
[00:31:33] Brigham: So yeah, I've learned a lot from that first prototype.
[00:31:36] Tayson: I mean, I remember and this is a while ago so it's you have to go back and really a couple weeks in fact there. But I mean, in the biggest thing I remember is getting in it sleeping in and being like, wow this has Potential. Like I like it. It's just such a different experience. that it was, it was it was kind of eye-opening because in reality because we did start it off with my women's and I under Phil power out of the get goes like impresses. like as well as about my top quilt, like it does like in terms of size and space, but Getting in that bag. You're like dang. This is For the word comes to mind is like luxury, you know, because like you just like wow you really spread out and after being you know, a lot of years and talked and mummy bags. It was it was just like it was a different thing to experience and the backcountry. So I was, I was really excited. I mean, from Proto one, I was like, This is exciting.
[Editor’s note: The phrase “a lot of years and talked and mummy bags” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes disagree on the first sleep-system term; the surrounding comparison concerns prior sleep systems and the prototype’s roominess. The prototype clause beginning “my women’s and I under Phil power” is unclear in the transcription. The decodes disagree on the material words, although both recognize 900 fill power. The frozen specification separately identifies 900-fill-power ExpeDRY Muscovy down; that specification does not establish the exact prototype sentence.]
[00:32:39] Tayson: This is this is what we, you know it's kind of sometimes you got first part of back and You know it's it's a flop, you know? And and sometimes you first put it back and you're like, yes, this has some meat on the bones here. Like this is, this is exciting and I I was my biggest takeaway. I do remember I do remember the top taper being tied in the zipper being, you know, a little bit different in work and I am and some of those things, but guys, remember being, at least a pretty dang excited for Proto one.
[00:33:08] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:33:09] Tayson: So um, I mean, from there, obviously, it becomes a game of refinement and proof, you know, like refine it and then just get nights in it and refine it and get nights in it. So I guess from that that process, what we're more takeaways or more things to To tell and this story of how this product came to be.
[00:33:30] Brigham: Yeah, I mean it's nice when a first prototype Tells you like almost every design element. We can keep it just needs to be refined and that's actually a very motivating situation to be in because it's just like, you know, every little thing, every single thing that you need to tweak and Like now you're just envisioning. Okay. Well then this has six improvements that we can make and that means that this thing is going to be better the next time in the next time. In the next time, you can kind of see where it's gonna end up. And it's it's pretty energizing its You know, so improving really refining and finding a really optimized balance of the taper towards the top. So the zipper runs smoothly and there's no abrupt curvature or anything, it's very gradual curve, we dialed in the neck collar, the, you know, the collar. The draft collar. Making it bigger. Making sure there's a appropriate amount of down inside the collar. Changing the, the basically, the construction of what seems It's sown into. So that it is more oriented into the neck versus up to the head.
[00:34:45] Tayson: Oh, that's right.
[00:34:46] Brigham: And that and then combining that with making it like a four inch draft collar. It's just such a, such a better job at at ceiling up, you know, the neck area and and retaining Heat.
[00:34:59] Tayson: So with that feeling like you've got to have a cord pushing against you, right? Because that's that's one negative experience that I've had too is when you've got a cinch things up and it's like you feel a chord since against your body or you know when you've got this big of a draft collar that we kind of refine, you don't have to cinch it like so tight that it's It's uncomfortable. So
[Editor’s note: The clause “with that feeling like you’ve got to have a cord pushing against you” is unclear in the transcription. The decodes disagree on “with” versus “without.” The continuation explicitly describes uncomfortable cord pressure as a negative experience; avoiding that pressure is the supported design intention.]
[00:35:25] Brigham: yeah over iterations. You know we we change we added a couple more baffle lines to to contain the down a little bit below the knee. you know, on the zipper draft tubes, having a wide, excuse me. Having a wide like anti snag webbing that runs along the zipper track dialed that in. The internal drawers. So we mentioned we moved to elastic. but as we did that, then we just Shrunk the elastic. So very thin elastic cinch cord. So again we like it's only purpose just needs to cinch up the inside. It doesn't have to handle any load any stress, you know? I mean so, The thinner, it is the less likely it is to bother anybody and the easier it is to to stretch if you know in the event that you know, a leg does push up against its, you know, we dialed, we dialed that in. I feel like once Man, I even on the second or third prototype, we we got the foot box with the dimensions like, where we want it.
[00:36:36] Brigham: We didn't even need to touch that for probably like the next 3 to the final iteration of prototypes like that was that all was just fine. We did learn like on the long models because we have regular and long models. Well, you know, persons if somebody's in the long model, their legs are Quite a bit longer than the average person for the regular model. So looking at the Sleep Quality and the space that they had to keep warm with their legs. We did add a third cinch cord on the long model, just for those taller people, instead of just the the one kind of at the knee area and the one at the foot area.
[00:37:15] Tayson: I think that's I think that's important too to highlight. When you know, as a taller person, you typically have longer arms, you know, longer legs and extremities are hard to keep warm. And if you really start paying attention, you'll find that a lot of people with that are taller or at least have like, like longer arms or longer legs. They struggle with keeping their hands or their feet warmer or things like that. And so having that I think is super helpful because you know for me this hasn't been an issue. For years, I feel like we really like have nailed the amount of down, putting in football boxes and stuff like that for so many years. I just all like, I would always have cold feet, you know, it felt like I'm talking back, like, 2015-16 17 and, you know, times like that, um, you know, we created down booties because I just constantly felt like my feet were cold hurts and most people's. And so, when you come to a longer bag like this, having the ability that the Expanse has, I think is just super helpful for tall people too.
[Editor’s note: The phrase “down, putting in football boxes” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes disagree on the exact noun; the surrounding discussion concerns insulation around the feet.]
[00:38:20] Tayson: So something to note, you know, it's because one thing that you'll notice is that we have those adjustments are really you know, in the lower half of this bag not so much up around the upper half of this bag. And sure you do get some you know some some compression and reduce volume by cinching up the neck area. But for the most part most of your vital organs and your heat and your blood flow and things like that or right there in the core of your body. And so The first thing that starts to usually get cold if you're pushing limits on a bag is going to be you know your your feet and your your legs and you know kind of going away from your bigger Center of mass. So just something I guess to know but I definitely appreciated at adding in that extra drawer on the long model.
[Editor’s note: These are personal cold-sleeping observations, not a diagnosis or a universal rule about height. Fit, pad insulation, conditions, and individual cold sensitivity all affect warmth.]
[00:39:06] Brigham: Yeah. Um yeah. I mean it's just the whole yeah I feel like it just was I want to say it was just like a simple and easy but the whole process was just honestly, just every single like design element. Stayed on its path. Like went down the track that it originally started just more and more refined.
[00:39:29] Tayson: Yeah. So, let's, let's let's touch on anything that we haven't yet touched on. So, top to bottom here in the bag, we've got nice draft collar, goes all the way around, you know, the neck area. And these got the ability to cinch that tighter or leave it fully loose, you've got an interstate, go hold the very top of the zipper together if you, if you need or want to use that and then you've got a zipper, the zipper is I think we call it a half length zipper which we call it.
[Editor’s note: The clause “an interstate, go hold the very top of the zipper” is unclear in the transcription. The decodes differ on “snap” versus “snapped”; both describe an inner fastening at the zipper top. The original words are retained rather than manufacturing the sentence.]
[00:39:59] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:40:00] Tayson: So, it doesn't go as deep into the football box and some benefits of that. Right? Is wait, we say wait by not having an extra long zipper or something and then warmth zippers, you have to insulate those. And so it's not just the zipper weight but it's the draft tubes, have to follow that and then, you know, you know, to properly insulate it. But then there's still just always the Potential of it not being as insulated as the rest of the bag. And so by doing a half-length zipper, keep the bag, really warm. We reduced weight on the bag, and, you know, we want it with, with the extra knee room too. It just wasn't as hard to get in, and out of the bag with it with out having an extremely long zipper. And so, yeah, really, really enjoyed the house. We've got the zipper and we dialed in those baffles and you'll see it's a, it's more of a unique baffling system. We've got horizontal vertical baffles so on and so forth.
[Editor’s note: The phrase “deep into the football box” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes disagree on the exact noun; the surrounding discussion concerns how far the half-length zipper extends toward the foot area.]
[00:41:00] Tayson: Bring it down there like right, you know, basically the zippers ending and starting into the thigh and knee and feed areas. Then we've got some of these expandable, inner elastic draw chords the most part, I'll just kind of say this for the most part. You don't touch those like you can leave on fully open, really? It's just when you're getting into the edge case scenario. And so for the most part, you're using this bag, fully white open all the time. It's warm. It's adequately insulated and, and you just get to experience the whole roominess of the bag. Um, in terms of just like some some numbers here and a numbers numbers, don't tell all story because numbers really like a comparison numbers on is only valid to what it's compared to. But when you compare it to even some of our own mummy bags and things like that, like you're talking and then in the knee area that you're getting 50% more room and the foot box are getting you know 40 plus percent more room.
[00:42:00] Tayson: So it's a, it's A very noticeable amount of additional space and when you look at the bag you know you'll you'll see it. You'll see that it doesn't have the traditional tight mummy look to it. Yeah,
[00:42:11] Brigham: it does not. I mean it I just call it a mild taper because it's If the definition of a mummy is that it's narrower at the bottom. That is at the top. Then yeah, it's a mummy bars is tapered at the top too. So, but If the from the shoulder to the foot box, yes, it Narrows down but it's compared to a standard mummy shape. It's it's much more mildly tapered.
[00:42:35] Tayson: Yeah. And what I've what I've experienced that because in the past we have had rectangular bags specifically in my Aerie sleeping bags. And even before that one call and Explorer but I mean, for me, I never, you never can use the edges of a corner sleeping bag, but he can't stick your foot down in a corner really well. You know, you don't ever really want to point your toe into a corner because that's like the coldest spot in the bag. And so I equate sleeping in this bag to almost the same fill as sleeping in a rectangular style sleeping bag versus a mummy style, sleeping bag in terms of actual real life. Use if that makes sense. Like if I was to go pull one of our old Aerie products, And pull this. I would feel like they have the same amount of room like, usable space.
[00:43:25] Brigham: Yeah. Just without the inefficient use of space.
[00:43:28] Tayson: Yeah, exactly. So it sleeps more like a rectangular bag to me with this mild taper that Brigham, you know, just just mentioned the bag itself is symmetrical and that was by Design, you know, originally it was Part of the concept. There was you know we can flip it and put the zipper on one side. Flip it puts up on the other. But we always also had ideas and we got to test this that you could unzip, the entire bag and basically use it in what we call Top quilt mode. Or you could leave the zipper fully unzipped and you could put your feet in it, just like a top quilt and you could lay the bag on you more like a top quilt. Know there's not like pad straps or adjustments, but it's just like blanket mode, top quilt mode, where you can, where you can, you can tuck it under you if you want, or you can leave it to fully open and that ended up being just another advantage to the expanding use cases and and comfort ranges of the back.
[00:44:26] Brigham: And yeah, because that's like for the case where it's warmer than you were hoping for or expected. You know, because yeah, it's a really effective way of releasing. Heat that you don't want.
[00:44:41] Tayson: Yeah. So that that's symmetrical style without the hood right? Because the other thing is other sleeping bags that have a hood. We can't you can't lay it and topical mode or you've got a hood, basically laying on half your face. And so being able to do it this way, just gives you more customization and how you want to use use the product. you know you mentioned the length already regular and long so I won't go into the details there but As far as materials go, you know we're using. If you've already seen our top quilts the same material, we use the top coats at the 1099 on the zipper. but let's talk a little bit now about like, Field, testing and what we noticed using the product. Especially as we got closer to the Finish Line, where we were, you know, in the final touch points of refinement. I mean I definitely have some things I can probably share and just how I feel about it but I'll let you go first. Um, just I don't know. As you used it more and more. What did you like about it? What stood out to you?
[00:45:47] Tayson: About the product.
[Editor’s note: The phrase “lay it and topical mode” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes disagree on the exact wording; the surrounding explanation concerns using the unzipped bag like a quilt. The complete material-and-zipper clause beginning “the same material, we use the top coats at the 1099 on the zipper” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes do not agree on the complete sentence. Separately, the frozen product specification identifies 10D nylon shell and lining with DWR and a YKK No. 5 zipper; 10D describes the fabric, not the zipper.]
[00:45:49] Brigham: Yeah, the nice thing is, is that like the Simplicity aspect like held true, like it's it is it's just nice like it's kind of surprising how noticeable it is to have to. There's no fiddle Factor. There's no setup of anything. There's no attachment of anything it's and I, I wouldn't have thought or like that, it was that profound but it I'm not saying it's incredibly profound it's just that like 30 to 60 seconds. That I don't have to deal with or worried about anything, he's just pull it out of the drive back and get in. You know, it's like that's simple and that that held true. The space is, this is like you said, you can't unsee it. I have yet to experience a use case with it where the spaciousness was a problem.
[00:46:43] Brigham: and like, what would that problem be generally is probably going to be related to heat retention that, just never never saw it and So we'll talk about this later in terms of like different models were offering and and when but like we've got different temperature ratings in the sleeping bag and I made sure to use every single one of them to their to their temperature, rating and below. And like, still even then. You know, I was only doing any kind of supplementary things to keep warm when I was below its temperature rating. And so, if I was using a 15, right? I wasn't doing anything until it was like 12. And 9 degrees, you know? And that's yeah, that at that point. Yes, I'm putting on, you know, I'm stuffing puffy layer down there by my feet or something or Sometimes in the winter time. In really like winter conditions, I do what I always do. You know, that may be heat up some water, put in an algae or something like that. Like I've never never had to supplement anything related to like needing to keep that extra space, warm
[Editor’s note: Below-rating use is a personal test report, not a safe operating recommendation. Do not plan to exceed a bag’s rating based on this anecdote. A hot-water bottle can leak or burn: use only a container rated for the intended temperature, secure it, and prevent direct skin contact.]
[00:47:53] Tayson: so that in fact, we had, we had quite a few conversations where we essentially felt like the bag was sleeping warmer than we expected it to. And I think, you know, again coming back from years of sleeping and top quilts so much Just, I don't know. It just to me like because I again, I spend a lot of time for me. I spent a lot of time in the 150 degree model, but I spend a lot of time in the 3 0. like man this thing is a warm 30 like yeah, it's just like consistently The prize me, I guess you can say. And in what it was capable of doing. And I think part of that was just I can roll around, you know, I don't I'm not worried about drafts and, and like, in perfect scenario. Yeah. Top quilt is just those warm for this, you know, the same temperature but like in the, in the film that experience, I was always impressed by it and terms of the warmth itself.
[Editor’s note: The personal model-use comparison containing “150 degree model” is unclear in the transcription. The two decodes differ, and neither establishes whether the speaker meant 15 degrees, zero degrees, or a combination, nor resolves the comparison’s polarity. The launch specification cannot settle what he personally used. The separate 30-degree discussion is preserved; no 15-degree personal test claim is inferred.]
[00:48:54] Tayson: And yeah, I mean, I had a few scenarios where I would snug in this, the Cinch cords in the bottle of the bag and and I had positive experience at that. Like it was a noticeable change at like, it added. You know, a handful of degrees to just the Comfort level of the bag itself. I mean the biggest thing that stood out to me was I just flat out had some of the best nights of sleep I've ever had in the backcountry sleeping in the back. Can't say a certain, you know, is all from the bag. I was like, I mentioned earlier in the podcast been testing, different sleeping pads and, and some things like that, but there is no doubt to me, that a good chunk of the reason I had some of this best sleep was just the fact that This bag is more spacious, more roomy. It's less foreign coming from like your bed at home into it, because you can move around more. Similarly, to how you could on a bed at home.
[00:49:52] Tayson: And then just the lack, like, I'm a side sleeper and I pretty consistently rotate back and forth throughout the and every time I rotate, you know, you just kind of have that unconscious or conscious like question of like, okay, did I roll that? I created a cold spot. I created draft or something like that and with this one, you can stay more out of it per seek when you roller because there's just no, there's no potential, you know of yeah, having so much. So I just, I became kind of addicted to the qualities sleep. I was getting in these protos, the farther and farther. When it went into the design,
[Editor’s note: Reported warmth gains and sleep quality are individual experiences, not guaranteed degrees of added protection.]
[00:50:27] Brigham: that's one there, that is one. Thought that I also had was related to like, kind of the tossing and turning is I mean, from using the topical so much I had and then So when like, when we started working on the Expanse, like that meant, you know, for me for you for others, like that was the only Sleep System. We were going to use year round every single month of the year, no matter, the conditions, like that was, the only thing we're going to use. Like, that's how we're gonna test this product out. And I had to, I actually did have to like kind of force myself to ignore some of my like subconscious, compensation, like with the top quilt, the things clip down to a path and I can roll over back and forth and and like There's no it doesn't move around right. Because it's like, it's Pinned down. And then my mind I was like, oh well since it's not pinned down Maybe I need to worry about, like, when I toss and turn make sure that it's laying exactly how it was.
[Editor’s note: The phrase “from using the topical so much” is unclear in the transcription. Neither decode resolves the noun; the surrounding discussion concerns habits learned using a top quilt.]
