Missing Hikers, AT Cults, & The Thru Hiker Diet With Kyle O'Grady

Tayson Whittaker: All right, Kyle. Super glad to have you on the show. Thanks for being here today.

Kyle O'Grady: I'm excited. I really appreciate, oh, man, this is how we're gonna start out, really appreciate the invite. We got it. It's gonna be great.

Tayson Whittaker: I love it. I'm glad you did that. So it feels like I, I now have permission to be a little more, stumble across my words and, you're calling us from Hawaii right now, which seems like it's a long way from any through hiking trail. But, how's that going for you?

Kyle O'Grady: It's good there. Yeah, there's really not, I mean, I'm not like an expert on Hawaii hiking to be clear but there isn't much even for backpacking here. there is the call out trail though on Kauai, which I had never heard of before. I, before I came here, but I, I, I don't know when this is gonna come out, by the time this comes out, I'm sure that I'll have a video up about it already and some podcast stuff too. but that's cool. It's only about 22 miles though. So it's not really like a, I wouldn't really consider it a through hike, but then again, nobody knows what exactly constitutes a through hike. And we could do a whole episode just on that. I'm sure 

Tayson Whittaker: 22 miles. That sounds like a thru hike. A few more people could actually complete it, you know.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't know. Like, what is like, what is the cut off? Right. Like, I made a video about this a couple months ago. It's like, for me, I feel like a through hike is just like when you hike one trail continuously. But then again, there has to be some sort of mileage cut off because to me, like a 100 mile trail that you hike continuously that feels like a through hike to me. But a 22 mile trail doesn't. But like, I don't know where the cut-off is. So it's kind of, it's kind of interesting to go down that rabbit hole. I don't know.

Tayson Whittaker: That is, that is a good point because 100 miles does feel pretty substantial. Like it's a commitment. So like, maybe you just need to loop around the island 4 to 5 times to break that. You got to paddle to the next island. And then, so you got, so if you want to call it a through hike on Hawaii, you gotta, you gotta go from island to island and thru hike the whole, the whole range there.

Kyle O'Grady: So that'd be pretty sweet. There'd be a lot of roads, at least on Oahu, maybe on the other islands. It wouldn't be as much, but there's not too much, too much free space here. 

Tayson Whittaker: Well, I wanted to also say congrats, I pulled up your youtube channel today and dude, your channel is blowing up. Like I, I first, I was like, have I just not been watching closely enough because like, when did you get to 100 and 44,000 subs? And then I watched like I pulled up a video from like a month ago and you were like, hey, I'm trying to cross 100,000 subscribers And so, like, in a month you've gained 44,000 subs, it seems like you're just blowing up.

Kyle O'Grady: So, I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful. I started this new series on my channel a couple of months ago where I basically tell stories often, unfortunately, like, pretty sad stories. or sometimes just, like, interesting, like, weird, like, mystery stories about, like, things that have happened to various hikers, whether it's people being stranded or, you know, various things. some, some murders, stuff like that. And, yeah, it's like, pretty morbid stuff, but, like, that has definitely drawn in a lot of people. It's kind of interesting because I feel like I'm kind of sort of bridging the gap between, like, just having, like, the hardcore, like, you know, hiking nerds and also having just a more general audience that maybe doesn't know quite as much about hiking. And so I think that's the reason why my channel has grown so much and, and I'm very grateful because I've been grinding away doing youtube since the end of 2019. And, you know, I had had some success before that too but, like, nothing, like, it's been the last few months and so it, it feels good and, yeah, I'm just super grateful if I'm sure there'll be some people, watching and listening right now that follow my channel. So, if that's you, I genuinely appreciate it so much. 

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I, I may have you tell a quick story because you've got like five or six of these types of videos now on your channel. Maybe more. I'm not sure. 

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, I've got, I think I've got close to 10 at this point, something like that 

Tayson Whittaker: And they definitely seem clickable and very interesting for sure. So maybe, maybe to give them like a teaser here, Kyle because I really, we want them all to jump over your channel and listen to these or do I don't know if you tell them on your podcast as well.

Kyle O'Grady: But no, the podcast is more, the podcast is going to stick to their hiking, hiking her stuff, I think.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. So maybe give me an overview of one of these stories. Like, what is it, what is happening in them? What? because I, I think they look interesting but I have yet to, to be able to, to go through one.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'll talk about one that as of the time of this recording, it hasn't come out yet, but it's gonna be out tomorrow. So I'm assuming this will be out probably, you know, a while after that video is out. So anyways, it's a story about a man named Jesse Pinegar who disappeared on the man, my brain is not working, call out trail. The Hawaii names are a little tricky for me. Sometimes call out trail. That one I mentioned at the top of the episode here.

Tayson Whittaker: So in Hawaii?

Kyle O'Grady: in Hawaii. Yeah. And I went. I went in and hi to this trail a couple of weeks ago, and it's a pretty like notorious trail like it's There's like some really steep cliffs. That's kind of what it's most famous for. Is like. There's these sections of trail where it's just like a straight drop right into the ocean like it's not technically hard like the trail itself. It's not like you're climbing up and over stuff, or you know, dodging things like it's a pretty easy trail, but it's just a very. you know, steep penalty, if you misstep, I guess. And there's some danger, yeah, yeah. And this of dangerous river crossings and some beaches along the trail that are kind of dangerous. They're actually very dangerous because of the currents and stuff. But anyway, it's a pretty gnarly trail. and in 2008 there was a guy named Jesse Pinegar, who just disappeared on the trail. and they found his family found out about a campsite he had left like a few weeks, I believe, after he had gone missing. and there's been no sign of him ever since then, and one of the I think, one of the coolest things about this new series I've started on my channel. Is that not for all of them, but for a number of them I've gotten to like, actually talk to the families of these people, and they're always so appreciative which is awesome. and it gives me a chance to like. Ask them what they want me to include in the video stuff. Anyways, I talked pretty extensively with Jesse Pinegar's sister and the family. You know this is just their side. This is where we stray a little bit from the hiking aspect of it. But the family was very insistent that the police and Kuai, like didn't really care very much about his case, or didn't even really try to help or anything like that. And so they were so appreciative, like 15 years later. I was like giving them a platform to kinda like, Tell their story, and, like help, raise more awareness about what happened to you know what happened to Jesse. So that was really cool. But I'm not surprised that someone went missing on that trail, because, like I said, it's just if you're an experienced hiker you'd be fine on it. But I just. I just feel like it was more like high stakes than a lot of other trails that I've done. There's just less room for error, I guess. If that makes sense, you would be fine as long as you're careful. But if you're not careful, that's where things can go wrong, and a lot of people have died on that trail due to all the various factors that I just mentioned a minute ago. 

Tayson Whittaker: So you're really just becoming a “P.I.”, you're just starting to investigate.

Kyle O'Grady: I'm not investigating anything. I'm just telling the stories, you know, and maybe someday maybe probably not. But maybe someone will watch one of my videos and that will spur their memory or something and they'll be able to help one of these stories, or help off one of these cases very unlikely. But that's like a dream. I guess a pipe dream, so we'll see if it ever does happen. You'll definitely hear me bragging about it.

Tayson Whittaker: So some of these, Some of these are they murderers, or are they just missing cases?

Kyle O'Grady: Some of them are murdered. Some of them are missing. They're all hiking related. So this isn't like they're all they're always going to be hiking related. That's you know. That's i'm a hiking nerd, and so I'm never going to stray away from that aspect of it. But just

I've covered. I've covered a bunch of different things. Yeah, like people who have been murdered. Yeah, who have gone missing on various trails. I've even covered a few that are just like strange, maybe not quite as serious, like I did a video about the the 12 Tribes cults, and like their relation to the Appalachian trail, and how they kind of like target hikers on the at, which is something I kind of witness a little bit on my through hike, and then just other, like various stuff. I i'd like to find more that's gonna to ask 

Tayson Whittaker:  What the heck is the 12 tribes?

Kyle O'Grady: You haven't heard about that before?

Tayson Whittaker: No, no, I haven't.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. So on the A 12, 12 tribes are like, you know, some, most people, at least on the trail refer to them as a cult. And so that's how I refer to them in my video which turns out did offend some people, but that's how they're most often viewed. and they are hostile, they're religious. It's really weird. Like, again, I'm not an expert on them. Pretty much. All I know is just from my experience. You know what I witnessed on the A T and then of course, I did do quite a bit of research for that video, but they're like a religious group but it's like, they're like hippies too. It's really weird. Like, when you think of like a religious kind of fundamentalist group, you don't picture them also having like, hippie vibes, but it's like a mix between that. It's like, it's very bizarre. Not really my cup of tea and there's been some controversy in relation to, like, the way that they treat their Children and the women and like, it's not like, super clear, like there's no, like, super clear cut controversy. I mean, there kind of is, but like, they haven't really been, like, convicted of anything, at least in the United States. But like, there's, they don't have a great reputation either. I'll let people make that judgment for themselves if you want to do more research. But like, anyways, the way it relates to the AT is they have a hostel in Rutland, Vermont, which is AT town and they let hikers stay there for free, you know, you can give like a donation or whatever. And then my understanding, it didn't happen to me to be clear. But my understanding is that I don't know how they make this judgment, but some people will be approached when they're staying there and asked to come, you know, leave the trail and go to this like farm they have and then they'll try to like, get you to stay, I guess, you know. And like, so that's, it's kind of a recruitment tool basically that is kind of targeting hikers like that and drawing them in with this free hostel. So it's a little bit bizarre. I know they go to trail days and I've heard also just from the comments on my video about it, people say they're present on other trails too, although I haven't, you know, noticed that myself. So I don't know, it's, it's a little bizarre. They make good food though. I'll say that they are good. They do. They have a, they have a, a deli attached to the hostel and the sandwiches are banging 

Tayson Whittaker: All part of, all part of hr, all part of recruitment there.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. I guess I gotta make some money too somehow. 

Tayson Whittaker: That's pretty wild. 

Kyle O'Grady: I'm surprised you haven't, I guess if you haven't, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It's like a very, like, niche, like a thing, I guess. 

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I would say I'm way less first on things AT’s, I mean. I did go out to trail days this last year, and we did hike a 100 mile section there. But the East Coast was my first ever experience of East Coast hiking. 

Kyle O'Grady: What section did you do? 

Tayson Whittaker: We just did 100 miles right out of Damascus, north. So Cameron Highlands. Yeah, and some of them are. I mean, I have nothing to compare it to, and we didn't stay at any of the shelters, or anything like that. We're just. We were like. This is weird. Why would we stay next to people? Because, like out here in the West, it's like you. You try to get away from people. So, and we were. We were on a pretty tight schedule. So we were doing you know, like 25 miles a day, and so it's just kind of like wherever we landed at the you know. However far we could get to. We kind of call it there, and so but it did seem big. I think we were just ahead of the biggest bubble, though, like we left. I think we were there on Saturday, and then left at like 3 PM. And got like 10 miles on that day. And so I think we were just Yeah, I think we're just ahead of it. And it was funny, because there's a lot of people that were on the trail we were passing, and they were all like it's the bubble right behind you. We heard. Covid went crazy in Damascus. And you know, like all this, there's a lot of fear, and they're like trying to move, too. So but no, it was really really cool to hike out there, but I would by no means say I'm an expert, or know a lot about the AT or East coast. So 

Kyle O'Grady: Next, have you? Have you been back to the East Coast at all? You gotta get up to the White Mountains if you're gonna come back to the east coast. and you only have a limited amount of time which i'm assuming you gotta go to the whites. That's that's the best place on the East coast, in my opinion, in terms of in terms of hiking

Tayson Whittaker: That was my thought was to come back into a section, either in the whites or the smokies. But the whites that seem a little more appealing to me are cool too. 

Kyle O'Grady: The Smokies are cool too. I haven't really been there very much just on my third hike. But in the whites I've been there like tons and tons and tons. I'm gonna be going back real soon here too. That's like, yeah, that's, that's the best place for sure. And on the east coast anyways, that's, that's like the most challenging stuff too. You're gonna, I guess the Adirondacks here are pretty similar, but the whites are a little bit easier in terms of the logistics and stuff. So, yeah, I would definitely recommend that.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I think we'll have to on that note. You hike the AT correct

Kyle O'Grady: Yes, sir.

Tayson Whittaker: and you hiked that before you ever started like Youtube podcasts. Anything like that correct? 

Kyle O'Grady: Correct? It was kind of like the oh, sorry, sorry.

Tayson Whittaker: Go ahead. No, no! 

Kyle O'Grady: I was just gonna say, I thought of the idea to start making content when I was on the A team. I didn't actually make any when I was out there.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. So, I first heard of you while I was on a backpacking trip with Dan Becker and Devin Ashby. They were talking amongst themselves, and i'm like, Who's Kyle? What are you talking about? And I think it was mainly because of the way that you had started your channel. You know kind of I mean with a name like Kyle hates hiking. Obviously, you'd already hike the AT. Yeah. I don't think you hate hiking right. That's it's just the whole play. And then you kind of started your channel by doing some things a little bit more abrasive. I guess you're trying to. I'm at a loss for words as well right now, 

Kyle O'Grady: But it's just like trying to be a little goofy here, not taking place seriously.

Tayson Whittaker: being goofy, being chill and like. If you watch the videos like you got it right. You weren't like thumbnails. Maybe you're like, Well, what is this kid? Who is?

Kyle O'Grady: I mean? Every now and then someone definitely does not get it based on my comments. But most people, I think I think, too.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, no, it's commenters on the Internet are a whole different. Yeah, it's insane out there, right? You can't create anything without a 

Kyle O'Grady: Let’s say you get 100,000 subscribers. Then see some of the comments you get

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I mean it's you even read comments at that point. 

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, I do still just because like, I don't know because every now and then you get something wrong and like, you know, and people can point that out which is helpful but you know, I probably shouldn't read them as much now that I'm getting way more than I ever did before.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, yeah, no, it's. I would agree. I would agree. So talk to me a little bit about just the start of all of your content creation and maybe that first hike was like, Did you actually dislike any aspects of hiking? Did you ever go through a phase like that, or was, or was that

Kyle O'Grady: It was always tongue in cheek, the name. which is kind of funny. Yeah, I mean, I started my channel, like that was the idea behind it. I was like, you know, I love backpacking videos but like, man, all these guys, they just take it so seriously. Like, it's so I was like, that's just not who I am. So I'm gonna like, try to, you know, do similar content and still give people useful information, of course, but like, just present it in just a more fun way and just be goofing around. That was the idea right from the start. And it's kind of funny and a little bit ironic maybe that, you know, I, I found a lot of success with that, but also my channel didn't really blow up until I started making these very serious, like, videos like these like very dark videos, which is kind of ironic. But yeah, I mean, I, I hiked the 18 in 2018 and I'd always been interested in content. I've been a youtube ner my whole life, I've spent, even now after making so many youtube videos for a number of years, like, I've still spent way more time in my life, like, consuming youtube than I ever have actually making videos. So I've always been like a content nerd and then on the A T I got really into podcasts because I was hiking so much. And so I was just like, listening, I was just like, desperate to find new, new podcasts and like doing all this and that and I've always wanted to make content. And I think even then I wanted to make youtube videos, but I didn't, I didn't really have the guts yet. And so on the AT I got the idea, I was like, you know what, when I get back, I'm gonna start a podcast that seems easier than starting a youtube channel. I already have, I already had this microphone. I had some pretty good technical skills already that I developed when I was in college. And even before that a little bit. And so I was like, that doesn't seem that difficult. I can talk, I can record, I can do basic audio editing. And so I did that, I hiked the A T I told everyone or not everyone I told a, a few people I was going to start this podcast and they're like, Yeah, whatever dude. And then I got back and sure enough, like a week or two after they finished, they were getting a text from me being like, yo, let's do a podcast and they're like, what? I didn't know he was actually serious. So I did that and I did Trail Tales, which is the show for over a year before I finally got the, the courage to get on camera. And like I said, the idea was just goofy, like good information, but presented in a, in a goofy way. And, you know, I found some traction pretty quickly. I was very, very grateful, that people were kind of latching onto the videos. I'd like to think that I got a lot better, the more that I did it and I just haven't stopped. It's been what it was. The end of end of 2019 is when I started the, the videos and the end of 2018 was when I started the podcast. And I did take a break from the podcast for about a year from like August of 21 until December of 22 I guess, a little bit more than a year, but the podcast is back now and just content. I'm everywhere. I'm on tiktok now. I never thought I'd say that in a million, a million years, but here we are. I'm a tiktoker apparently follow me on there. 

Tayson Whittaker: And yeah, just what just, what is your favorite part? What is your favorite part about creating content? Like, what do you get out of making all these videos, you know, besides like, there's some monetary benefit, right? But like, like, what's your why behind doing it?

Kyle O'Grady: That's a good question. So one of my favorite things, I don't know if I could pick like a, like just one thing, but one of my favorite things for sure is getting emails and messages and comments from people, like telling me that it's helped them with, you know, whatever various thing or that it's, I've gotten people tell me, like, my content has inspired them or partially inspired them to do their own through hike, which is awesome. You know, every now and then I'll get recognized when I'm hiking by somebody. And they'll tell me, like, I remember back in the summer of 2021 My channel wasn't even that I probably had like 15,000, 20,000 subscribers back then. And I went on a, just an overnight hike on the A T and I just happened to go through right when the through hiker bubble was coming through that area. And I, like, we got me and my friend Flossie who's in a lot of the videos. We got recognized by like so many through hikers and like, they were telling us like, oh, like your videos were so helpful and at this point we were in Vermont and so at this point, they were, you know, well into the trail and clearly, like, we're like, doing well, we're on track to make it all the way. And so, like, just hearing, like, all these people, like, it wasn't that many people, you know, it's probably like five or six people, but just in, you know, just over the course of a day that was quite a bit and just like hearing these, like through hikers, these badass through hikers, like telling me that, like, my videos were really helpful for them. You know, and helped though certainly was not the only reason for the success that they had had, you know, up to that point on the trail. Like that was just really cool and very, very rewarding. So that's a big reason. That's a huge benefit. And then also just like, it's just fun to be creative. It's just like, and, you know, youtube is definitely not the most creative, you know, thing out there. I'm not saying that, but it's just really satisfying to, like, put a lot of work into a video, like spend a lot of time trying to come up with a, a topic and a title and a thumbnail that you think is going to be well received and then to put it out there, not really knowing for sure. And then to have it like, be well received is just like, very satisfying. and so that's like a really, a really cool aspect of it as well. There's, there's a lot.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. Isn't it interesting that, like, your videos can be seen by tens of thousands or hundreds thousands of people? But, like, you talk to one person on trail and it's like, hey, I'm doing something here.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's pretty crazy, honestly like, and it doesn't happen like that often. But like yeah, it's cool. It's cool. 

Tayson Whittaker: It's, it's a weird kind of day and age to be in because I feel the same way, like if, if we get stopped on trail and, and talk to it, it means so much more than like a comment, right?

Kyle O'Grady: I know, which is crazy right?

Tayson Whittaker: Which is good comments all the time.

Kyle O'Grady: Isn't that crazy? Because like the, you know, the core of what they're saying might not be any different between the conversation you have in person and the comments on youtube or whatever. But like, and I, and I, and those, those comments still do mean a lot, like I said, but if there is just something about it happening in person, that's extra cool. I don't know. It, it, it definitely means like I, I, I can like, remember pretty much every interaction that I've had with someone like on trail that, you know, recognized me. But like, I don't remember every nice comment as much as I wish that I could. I still appreciate that though. Trust me.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, last year we put together this program and we just, we're, we're doing it again this year called The 100 Mile Challenge. And it's, it's like this diy challenge you can sign up for and, and then we have like a Facebook group and then we do like live coaching calls essentially to help people kind of go through the framework and in the training and last year, we just did it as a beta and it was wild to me that of like everything we did of products we launched content we released you know, all of the, all of the things that we did that was like the single most like personal like made me feel better about like stuff we were doing than anything else, right? And even though like we, it was just a small group, we capped it. it was wild just because it was way more personal and it just really, it really goes to show like this weird day and age that we live in of like we can be affecting thousands of people. but it sometimes it's hard, you know, when you're behind a computer doing it and you're not getting that face to face time. So no, that's cool. That's cool. You're getting recognized and, and those, those really are valuable experiences. So if you see Kyle out on the trail, make sure you stop him harassing 

Kyle O'Grady: unless you hate me. If you don't like me then just keep on walking.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. So you've also done the PCT. That was last year. If i'm not

Kyle O'Grady: I did like, 80 ish percent of it, about 20-2200 miles of it. Roughly.

Tayson Whittaker: Ok. What, what's, what happened there?

Kyle O'Grady: just like fire closures and that was the main thing. And then, like, I, I, I probably, if I had just like, you know, it was, you know, early to mid September by the time I went home, like, if I had just hung around for like a couple months and, like, went to the car or something, I probably could have hopped back and forth and ended up getting everything to be clear, but I just didn't really want to do that. And so, yeah, I did, I did most of it but like, there were so many closures and which is far from a unique story on the PCT these days. but the worst one was the Canadian border closed because of a fire. Like when I was, you know, within, you know, striking distance of it, which was a real bummer. I was already in Washington at that point and then we learned that the border section was closed because of a fire. So that was a real bummer. That was kind of the nail in the coffin. I do. Think it opened back up at some point. But, yeah, I don't know. At that point it was, it was too late for me. 

Tayson Whittaker: That's, that's incredibly frustrating. I imagine. I can't imagine

Kyle O'Grady: It's the way it goes the way it goes on the PCT. I'm gonna hopefully get back out there and finish it by the end of the summer. That's the plan My permit is, permits are still pending. But, you know, that's the, that's the, that's the plan.

Tayson Whittaker: Okay. If you were to recommend someone to go on it through hike, you know, between the Pct. And the At. What do you recommend? First,

Kyle O'Grady: I think either way you'd be fine like there's, there's beginners or not even beginners. It's just like the first time through hikers on both trails. I think if you're from the West coast, then you should do the PCT first. If you're from the east coast, then I would say do the AT first. Physically, the PCT is probably a little bit easier though. It's not a lot of people say that and then it gives the impression that the PC T is like a cakewalk. It's not, it's still very difficult. but it is just a little bit better graded on some of the climbs and stuff. AT is easier logistically, you don't have to worry about resupply nearly as much. Although the PCT generally is still pretty easy. There's just a few spots that are not easy and the A T is almost always very easy to resupply on. So it just depends. I would say the biggest, the biggest deciding factor would just be like, which would be easier for you to get to. if you're east coast, do the A T first, if you're west coast, if you're in the middle of the country do often forget about middle of the country, folks. I don't know. Maybe that's a toss up. I could go either way, flip a coin. I wish I had a better answer. But you, you can't go wrong either way.

Tayson Whittaker: You're good. What do you feel like is some of the best advice you could give for someone preparing for a thru hike.

Kyle O'Grady: It kind of depends on how much backpacking experience you have. If you don't have any, then my biggest piece of advice would be, go and get some backpacking experience first. do as much as you can. There are people every single year on every single trail that have never spent a night outside and they make it all the way. So I'm not, I'm not trying to discourage you but like the more experience you have the better 100%. and then mentally, I think that a lot of people go into their first thru hike, not really understanding and, and there's no way for you to fully understand what it's gonna be like obviously. But like, I think a lot of people tend to underestimate the mental side of things and that's very understandable, but just know that it's hard and it's not always fun. A lot of the time. It's not always like super fun. It's, it's very rewarding, it's always rewarding, but it's not always fun. And so I think that people should really, like, really think a lot about their reasons for being out there. I know for me personally, I need more of a reason than just to have a cool adventure for some people that work. But I feel like that's not the majority because like, you can go, you know, you can go adventure anywhere for a few weeks and then after that, you're gonna be ok. I'm, I'm a little adventured out, I think it's time to go home and get clean or whatever. So that's your only reason. I just feel like your chances of succeeding are as high. But again, there are people that still succeed with that, that mindset. But for me, I needed a bigger reason to hike. And just like, for me, that was just this goal of wanting to complete like the entire trail. That was something that was just like, very important to me, especially, I mean, it was important on the PCT two, but that just kind of fell to the wayside after a while because of all the fires and stuff. But, on the A t, especially, like, that was very, very important and that was like, what kept me going instead of just wanting to see cool views because you get sick of the views after a little bit. Sometimes. Depends on, depends on the views actually. But sometimes, I don't know. Hopefully. Yeah. Just, just take the mental preparation, like, very seriously and physical too. but that kind of goes back to just like having some experience and stuff before.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, let me ask you that, like, how many miles do you typically average per day?

Kyle O'Grady: You know, it varies, you know, on the PCT I averaged more on the AT I averaged about 15 per day when all was said and done including zeros, including zeros, everything from the day I started to the day that I finished. I averaged 15. But, you know, that means that typically it was more, you know, anywhere from, like I'd say like around 20 was probably like a good, like average. There were some days that were more, there's a lot of days that were less too on the PC T was a little bit more. I don't remember my total average on the PC T because things got so messed up with sections that we had to skip and all that. I could figure it out pretty easily. I just haven't. But, it was probably closer to, like, I don't know, maybe closer to like, 18 or so per day. 17, maybe something like that. so we were doing like 25 mile days. We're fairly typical on the PCT. We did some thirties, you know, lots of twenties, I would say after we got ramped up and then the PC T, like I said earlier, it's just like the grade is easier. So, a 30 mile day on the PCT is much easier than a 30 mile day on the AT. Generally speaking, I think I only did 1 30 mile day on the AT.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I mean, those are some big days, 20 to 30 miles. That's a lot of, a lot of miles in a day. So, if you were to compare the mental versus the physical, what do you feel like? Is it harder? What's, I guess I'll start by saying, what do you think takes more people off trail? 

Kyle O'Grady: the mental, I think, I think, well, a lot of people get off show because they get injured actually. So, 

Tayson Whittaker:  and it doesn't take long once you have an injury to, like, mentally check out too. Right?

Kyle O'Grady: That's a good point. Maybe there's people that get off trail due to injuries that could have pushed through it or, or not, maybe pushed through, but just could have figured it out, and found a way to heal it, but didn't, it's really tough to say I do, I'll just say that a lot of people do get off because they're just not having fun and it's not really what they thought it would be. even people that have, you know, thru hiked previously, like, will get off trail on their next year hike because of mental and all sorts of stuff. That happens quite a bit. So, like, yeah, the people leaving because of the mental stuff is, is very common for sure.

Tayson Whittaker: Isn't that interesting that even if they had done it thru hike, like, what, what we choose to remember? You know, a lot of times we, what I always say is you forget the bad. Typically you learn from certain aspects but, but you really remember the good and then you just kind of reminisce, reminisce, reminisce and then you get out there and you're like, oh, wait, this was really hard. I totally forgot how hard this was or?

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. And sometimes it can be circumstantial to, like, even just maybe you're in a different place in your life for your second through hike and it's not as good or maybe you just don't like the trail as much. You know, there's a whole, you know, a ton of different reasons that it could happen, but it does happen. It certainly does happen. I mean, you could argue that it even happened to me, you know, I like to give myself a little bit of leeway because I do think that if the trail had been open, I would have hiked all the way through. but like, I mean, technically I could have hopped around and probably completed the whole trail last year, but I didn't, so you could even say that I quit, which is like a running joke and debate on my channel now. Like, did Kyle quit?

Some people say yes. Some people say yes, but I just, Kyle quits hiking. I don't think anyone's made that. Yeah, that's a good one. I'm surprised nobody, maybe someone made it.

I just missed it. I don't know. That's a good one.

Tayson Whittaker: So, doing over 20 miles a day though, I'll just say that because like you said, there's a scale there but doing 20 or more miles a day. It's a challenge. It's a challenge for a lot of people. And it was actually one of the most common questions that we got when I was hiking on the Appalachian trail. that little section that we did because we were kind of in the, the range per se of where people were typically doing 13 to 15, maybe 13 to 17 miles a day. And so when we came through, we were doing honestly 25 a day. on average, we did have 130 mile a day, which was a complete accident. I wish that we didn't have, I wish that we had, had far out. We would have, we would have saved ourselves some headaches at times. We were just, you know, just going. And, like one of the times like the day we did over 30 was not planned, it was we got on to some private land where we couldn't camp and we're like, oh, great. So then we just had to keep moving through, you know, but

Kyle O'Grady: That's a pretty freaking good dude for not thru hiking on the AT you just hop on there and do a 30 mile day. That's pretty, that's pretty good.

Tayson Whittaker: We do train a lot like we, we run, we trail run, you know, we try to like, like, because if you ever go to the win to high line, I think we averaged 22 plus miles a day, maybe even higher. Because we did that 100 and 10 mile section in 4.5 days. So we've got a really good crew here. Like we, we all run, we all train. And we basically trail run because it's just a faster way to get miles in if that makes sense. But, and we, and we fast pack a little bit as well. But back to back to this question for you is we get that question a lot like, man, how do you guys do 20 miles a day? And like, and so we kind of talked through like, well, you know, maybe it's, this, maybe it's like trying to figure out what we're doing differently than them per se besides just physical preparedness. What, what do you say to people like that? Like, what are, what are some things that you feel like guys that are doing, let's say 13 to 15 miles a day? What are some things that they could tweak or focus on that would allow them to maybe extend their range every day?

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that you have to preface it by saying, you know, as you just mentioned there too, a lot of it just, it, it like is just physical, like if you're not in shape for it, it doesn't matter what little hack or what little trick you have to be in shape for it. And so on both of my long thru hikes when I started, I was not doing 20 mile days. In fact, I was even, I started very slow for the first, like, couple days on both of them because I didn't want to over exert myself. I intentionally under exerted myself. But, and so like a big aspect of it is just building up to that, like on the AT, I didn't do my 1st 20 mile day until day 20. And so, and on the PCT it was probably a little bit sooner, but it still wasn't within the first couple of days like you and you and I were training before both hikes. Like you have to be ready for it. But then when you, if you're already doing 15 miles a day, then it's probably not too much of a stretch. and everyone's, it works, it's different for everybody. So, for me, I think the biggest thing is just pacing. Like I will just like, try to plan ahead a little bit and pace myself. So like, OK, I know on the PCT especially, oh, there's another, there's like two water sources. I'm gonna hit it today. I'm gonna try to just hike, you know, without stopping between both water sources and those will be my breaks. So I really only take like one or two breaks a day. You know, breaks like sit down and take off my pack breaks, you know, every now and then I'll stop to catch my breath or whatever, sit down for a second, especially towards the end of the day and then. So I like to go pretty hard in the morning and in like, you know, the first half of the day or first, 

Tayson Whittaker:  What is morning to you? When do you get up? 

Kyle O'Grady: Not super early, usually like to try to be on trail by like eight or so. And it, it, varies like on the PCT in the desert, it was earlier because it was so hot. So we would usually start by like six or 6:30 on, on, yeah, maybe 6 or 7 on, on those days. But then as the weather got a little bit or just as we got out of the sun all the time, we would sleep in a little bit more. And on the eight it was the same thing, like eight AM, 8:30. Usually I'm not an early riser but, yeah, I would just, like, try to go pretty hard for like the first half or two thirds of the day and then not always. But if I could afford to just kind of like, spend the last little bit of the day, like maybe the last like, five miles, just like going a little bit slower and like cooling off a little bit. I would try to do that too just to kind of ease. So you don't come barreling into camp, like, just like after this 30 mile day, just like, all pumped up still and freaking which this still happens to me. Sometimes I'll, I'll rip in there after like a really long day and I'm all just like, fired up and I'm just like, you know, doing laps around the campground or campsite trying to find the best spot for my tent. Like that does happen. But, you know, 

Tayson Whittaker: It's like our five hour energy is a part of your kit. 

Kyle O'Grady: No, no, maybe they should be. maybe not. Maybe, I don't know. 

Tayson Whittaker: But so it seems like speed is pretty important to you. Do you ever hike after dinner?

Kyle O'Grady: But not, usually not on the regular. Only if it's really hot and we need to do night hiking to get the miles in.

Tayson Whittaker: So sometimes you feel like you typically stop then 

Kyle O'Grady: Pretty early. Like, usually around 6:30 I'd say like 6 to 6:30. And I found that on the PCT especially there were a lot of people that would still hike the same amount of miles that I would hike. They would just spread it out a lot more. Like, they would usually leave before me in the morning and then I would pass them and I would get to camp for like an hour or sometimes even, you know, longer before that they would get there and, you know, we still do the same amount of miles. They would just take more breaks and hike slower. And I'm very much like, I, I don't know, I like to, I like to get the miles in and then, like, really relax at camp and like, really just feel like my work for the day is done. I know it's a bad way to look at it for some people, but that's just how I've always looked at it. That's how I look at everything kind of like when I'm working in normal life too, I'm like, I want to get everything done and then after that, I can just, like, relax. But, that's kind of the way that I would look at it but, you know, it's different, it's different for everybody, for sure.

Tayson Whittaker: So let me ask you a few questions on weight and fueling. So let's start with just pack weight because if you're, if you are doing those kinds of miles and you're not necessarily hiking later in the evening or, or starting too early in the morning. To me, that means that you're, you're moving at a pretty good click or click down the trail. So how much, like, what's your typical pack weight? How much, how much emphasis do you put on pack weight? Because I feel like some of the guys that we were talking to, they definitely had some weight that they could have trimmed off their packs.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, I, I mean, you could always say that right. Like even the most hardcore ultra lighter could probably, there's probably something, 

Tayson Whittaker: but we're not, we're not talking like the 8 lbs base weight guys. We don't talk about those guys.

Kyle O'Grady:Ok. Well, good thing because I'm about 10 lbs base weight. However, I have all my camera gear and so I generally don't include that in my base weight because like most people, they aren't carrying 3 lbs worth of camera stuff. But I am and so without the camera stuff, it's around 10 lbs and, you know, that's pretty, I think that's pretty good and I still have a stove. I still have an inflatable sleeping pad. I have a, you know, a lightweight tent but still a tent, not just like a tarp. And so I feel like I've been able to strike a pretty good balance between having a pretty light setup and also still being, like, pretty comfortable too. I don't really feel like I'm sacrificing any comfort in order to get to that base weight. it would be nice to go a little bit lighter sometimes. Just because on a long thru hike I eat so much food. I carry so much freaking food. Like, some people hike with like a 40 even less liter backpack and I've always felt like for shorter trips, I could do that definitely. But for a long thru hike, like the PCT or the AT, like, I just, especially the PCT, maybe the AT I could get away with honestly because the resupplies are shorter. But on the PCT and on the CDT, I'm sure too, like, I need a lot of space in my backpack for food. And so that kind of is a bummer and that adds a lot of weight too, depending on the resupply. But, yeah, 10 lbs is around what my base weight usually is minus the camera stuff.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. I think that's a, that's, that's always what I shoot for is the 10 lbs base weight and then from there, I feel like I can add in any luxury items, you know, a couple of pounds of, if I want to bring a fly fishing rod or something or, or whatever, it might be for my specific trip. I think that's a great place to be. And I think, I think when you get below 10 lbs it's just the benefit to, to what you can save is pretty, is pretty minimal. Right?

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah, if you're, if you're going below 10 lbs you really gotta be doing like some big miles to make it worth it. You know, I feel like if you're, I mean, and again, if I don't know, that's a general statement, it's different for everybody, obviously, but like, for me certainly, I don't think that I would worry too much about going below that unless I was trying to do, like, day is so long that I've yet to ever do miles that long. So, you know, that,

Tayson Whittaker: Are you, are you a frame or frameless kind of guy?

Kyle O'Grady: I'm a frameless guy for sure. I ditched the frame a long time ago.

Tayson Whittaker: Ok. Talk to me about fuels. You said you like to eat a lot? What is a lot? And how often are you eating?

Kyle O'Grady:A lot, a lot of snacks, how often I'm usually eating? Like, you know, I'll eat it like a breakfast, a couple of protein bars. I'll munch on a few throughout the day too. Lunch, I'm sitting down and I'm just rifling through all the different snacks that I have and then dinner, I'm eating a big dinner. That's probably where a lot of the pack volume and weight comes from. I'll try to eat like, well over 1000 calories for dinner, which is not easy for backpacking food. Right. I'll wrap everything up in a tortilla and have multiple tortillas to boost the calories. I'll eat like a big dessert. So just like a lot of candy and nutella and whatever after I'm done dinner just to like really boost those calories. I'm trying to get as much as I can because I don't want to be super skinny by the end of my theater hike. Like that happens to a lot of people and like, you, you're gonna lose weight like there's no way to avoid that, but like, I really tried not to be just like total skin and bones by the end. And I did a pretty good job with that on both three hikes. I lost a lot of my upper body muscle but I wasn't like, totally just like skinny. So I feel like I did Ok. But man, I'm, I'm getting so sick of backpacking food, dude. Like, man, I'm just, I feel like I'm just always looking for new ideas for food. Like I can't just eat the same things over and over and, like, man, I'm just so sick of it. Like, I, it kills me to eat like, super unhealthy for like, multiple days in a row if it's just one day and then I'm totally fine with that. In fact, I love that. But like, you know, once a week or whatever, have a cheat day or whatever. But like, man, all day, every day, like, it is on thru hikes for me anyways, I know there's ways to eat healthy, but I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time getting enough calories honestly. And so like, yeah, the food is one of the biggest bummers of hiking honestly.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, that was always our question to the through hikers is like, what are you guys eating? Because, you know, we're, I feel like we're, we're very luxurious in the sense like we're not doing it thru hike so we can bring a lot better food and more of it. And I mean, and we retail things like peak refuel and honey Stinger products and stuff like that. So it's like we have access to a lot of that. So we're eating really well down to like drinking, drinking like greens during the day, right? But like these guys are just, I mean, they're eating tortillas with peanut butter and, and gummy worms, you know, it's like, 

Kyle O'Grady: yeah, it sucks, dude. Like it, it honestly sucks. I feel like I only have one more long, long, long through hike in me. after doing two already. And a big reason why is because like, it just kills me to go that long eating so terribly and, and look, I know there are some people out there who eat healthier on through hikes. So it is possible. it's just hard, like you, you have to be sending a lot more resupply boxes so you can really like to be picky about what you're eating. And that adds a whole another aspect of it that I hate dealing with. And a lot of excuse me, a lot of other directors hate dealing with. it's also just hard for me to get calories like I eat so much, like I said, like even in regular life, like I eat a lot. And so in order to get like all these calories, I can't just be eating like dried fruit like 24/7 and, and I don't know, I don't know, even those backpacker meals and stuff. I started buying more. I didn't buy any of those on the AT in 2018 and by the PCT I was starting to buy those a lot more just because like, man, like I was just getting so sick of like the rice and the, the mac and cheese and stuff. And even those, I was starting to get sick of the backpacker meals and stuff like, man, it's just, I hate the food. I hate the food aspect.

Tayson Whittaker: That's a good point. Like that might be by the end of it, the hardest thing I could imagine on trail, like, I enjoy modern day eating, I guess. Or you just got so much.

Kyle O'Grady: I love vegetables and like one thing I did on the PCT which I didn't do on the A T was, I would pack out vegetables every now and then. Especially avocados. Like, I would pack out an avocado for, like, the first day after I leave town and I would just add it to whatever crap hiker meal I was eating and, you know, that helps a little bit. And then I would always say, oh, when I get to town I'll eat healthier. But then I was just so hungry. I would just end up eating junk food in town too, but at least it was better junk food. It was like fresh junk food instead of dehydrated junk food. But I don't know. Yeah, the food stuff.

Tayson Whittaker: Do you feel like there was ever any long term, disadvantages from, from eating on a through hike? For instance, I was emailing, frozen a little while ago and he talked about actually developing some kind of getting anemic because he wasn't eating enough greens on the trail and, and it was, like, really affected his energy levels for a long, long time. I'm curious if you've ever noticed any degradation, you know, physically from the diet out there.

Kyle O'Grady: No, no, I haven't. Thankfully, I've noticed other physical problems, like little aches and pains and stuff, but nothing from the diet. Thankfully. Man, that, that's a bummer. I don't know. I don't know if I've ever really heard from anyone who's experienced that or, or maybe there's people that have, that just don't realize it too. I don't know. That's crazy though. I'd like to talk to him about that. I haven't talked to him for a while. He's a good guy.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. I'm sick of it now. But like my go to was, Annie's Mac and Cheese and then I would add hot sauce, olive oil, pepperoni or salami or whatever chicken, whatever meat I had maybe an avocado and then I would put it in a tortilla and eat mac and cheese and a tortilla

Tayson Whittaker: Just easier than cleaning a spoon. Right?

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. And it's just more calories. You just, like, you just need, you just need the calories. So you add like, two or three, like tortillas into dinner and like, that's a lot of extra calories you're getting there. So it helps and, I don't know, I guess it does make it a little bit cleaner, although not the way that I wrap my tortillas. I'm not very good at what you think after all these tortillas I've eaten on trail and ox trail. I eat them a lot too. You think I'd be better at folding them? But it's not the case.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. Have you ever heard of Backcountry Foodie?

Kyle O'Grady: It sounds familiar. I'm not really super familiar though.

Tayson Whittaker: tThere's a lady that reached out to us and we've used it a little bit. It sounds to me like if I was going on trail, I'd have to look at it. But she's, she's like a, she's a thru hiker, but she's a registered dietician as well. And she created this membership platform where she basically creates like healthy. Her saying is that when she went on trial, she was an ultra runner. Very skinny and didn't have the 20 lbs to lose or whatever. So, but, but what's cool about it is you can go into a town with like food, a food list. So you go to the store and know exactly what you need to get and then it will plug in all the meals on trail. So, for a guy like you, it might be worth it,

Kyle O'Grady: yeah, maybe the only problem is in a lot of these small towns along the trail, you just can't find everything. Like, even some of the junk food I wanted, I couldn't always find every now and then you'll get to a bigger town that has like a Walmart or like a full grocery store. But a lot of the time these stores are just small and so it really, it can be, it can be quite difficult sometimes. I really wish that grocery stores and maybe I'm just missing them, but I'm pretty sure I wish the grocery stores would sell dehydrated vegetables just because I know they exist. Obviously you can buy them on Amazon and stuff online, but I never saw them in grocery stores like that would make it so much easier. You could just throw some dehydrated vegetables in all your hiker meals. Like, man, that would be, that'd be a game changer.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm sure that would really help with. But so much of the physical aspects, 

Kyle O'Grady: Grocery stores aren't exactly catering towards the hikers because you come in with the biggest wallets now, like who else would want to buy dehydrated vegetables and they can just buy like regular fresh.

Tayson Whittaker: you come in with the biggest wallets now, 

Kyle O'Grady: like who else would want to buy dehydrated vegetables and they can just buy like regular fresh.

Tayson Whittaker: So as far as, going forward, it sounds like this year you may get back out on the PCT a bit. any other big adventures coming up.

Kyle O'Grady:I am gonna be moving back to the northeast for a good chunk of the summer and so I've been away from that, that's my home and I've been away for almost a year now. And so I'm just gonna be in the whites a lot in the White Mountains doing like, lots of stuff as far as through hikes. I don't have anything planned yet. It's possible that maybe when I get done the PCT, I might do a long one but I mean, I did 2200 miles. Actually, I did more than that because I did another 200 mile trail last year. So I did, you know, over 2400 miles last year. And so I know there's people, lots of people out there that are just habitual, like through hikers are always doing stuff, but like, I, I really like to give my body a bit of a rest. So, I'll be doing lots of miles this year. It just won't be as much thru hiking. But I mean, I'm gonna have to do like 400 miles on the PCT, like I said, it all goes to plan. So that's the big one. And then there's always lots of shorter trails that I'd like to thru hike. maybe I'll do one of those. Maybe I won't, I'm not exactly sure yet, but the PCT is the main one for this year.

Tayson Whittaker: Gotcha. man, I just had, I had another question going along with that. I mean, obviously getting out here to Utah, you can hike that you in a highline trail. That's a great trail if you out here,

Kyle O'Grady: I don't know too much about it, isn't it?

Tayson Whittaker: It's like a, it's like a, like a shorter John Muir style, I guess.

Kyle O'Grady: Is it, is it, like, fully developed or is there some route finding on it?

Tayson Whittaker: No, it's, it's a trail the whole way.

Kyle O'Grady: Ok. For some reason I was under the impression that part of it was route finding. But that's cool. That is on my list. I've heard that, I've heard that it's pretty cool.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, the hardest part is definitely the shuttle aspect of it because one end of it is really remote. I mean, they're both pretty remote trail heads but one end is quite remote and there's been shuttles that have like popped up and disappeared over the years. So, there may be a shuttle, there may not be, but there's also, I mean, that trail is not gonna clear until maybe July this year. It's just, there's gonna be so much, much snow. 

Kyle O'Grady: But are there any points to resupply or do you have to do it all in one shot?

Tayson Whittaker: It's one shot, 100 and 10 miles, one shot

Kyle O'Grady: carrying 100 miles worth of food is tough for me.

Tayson Whittaker: It kind of, there is, there is a spot where you cross, like there again with some of the shuttle services, they will shuttle in some food to like you cross a dirt road once or twice, but like within like the same day. but there's probably 60 something miles of it that would have to be in 11 carry. so that's, yeah, that is part of why it's, it's definitely beneficial to, to cover some miles and not drag it out, you know and because of that, but,

Kyle O'Grady: I mean, I have done 100 mile stretches without resupplying but like, it's, it's not preferred because, like I said, I just have to carry so much food so it hurts, it hurts my back the first couple of days.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. You may have to switch back to a framed pack for, yeah, I don't know.

Kyle O'Grady: I made it work. I did the PCT. I did like 100 and 20 with a bear canister too and I managed to do it with my frameless pack. But, oh my God, it was my hips and my back were, or my shoulders were destroyed for the first couple of days. It was insane. I should have taken some pictures. Honestly, it was nasty.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah. Yeah, that, that I haven't had to hike much with the bear. Can, to be honest, a lot of bear hangs very few bear canisters and they just, they don't, they're not happen. 

Kyle O'Grady: Nobody likes them. The bears don't like them either. The bears. 

Tayson Whittaker: Any, any like big dream hikes like international hikes or anything like that. That's just like this is something I want to make happen in my lifetime. 

Kyle O'Grady: You know, honestly, the biggest one is the CVT I'd like to do, sometime within the next few years. Probably not. Definitely not. This year, probably not next year, but maybe the year after that, something like that. and then,, I'm from Vermont and I've hiked the long trail. That's like my, it feels like my home trail. That's where I like, started backpacking. I know that trail super well. And so I think I'd just like to go back and hike that trail. That's the only trail that I've already done. I'm really just itching to go back and do and, and probably will do a couple more times over the course of my life. I think any time I'm feeling homesick, I'd like to just go back and see if I can hike that trail and just get reacquainted with my home because I don't really see myself living there again for a long time. And so that's, it feels weird. It's calling that a dream high because it's very attainable. But like, that's, that's what I think. 270 miles.

Tayson Whittaker: Okay.

Kyle O'Grady: Yeah. And, I love that trail. I love that trail so much. And so that, and the CDT are the two ones that I, I don't really have any plans to do the long trail probably any time soon. But I would, I definitely want to go back and do it, like I said, multiple times over the course of my life.

Tayson Whittaker: So, you'll, you polish off the triple crown, change your youtube channel to Kyle hates triple crowns. And never do it again. 

Kyle O'Grady: I will not be doing the triple crown again. I don't see myself doing the entirety of any of the AT or the PCT or the CDT again. I mean, I haven't done the CDT yet, so I will do it once. Hopefully if I'm so fortunate to be able to finish it. But, I don't think, like I said, it's just, it's hard on your body, man. I'm only 27 and like, I still feel like it just takes a toll and some people are just like, can just do it all the time. Like every year they're doing thousands of miles. But it's hard, man. It takes a toll on your body for sure.

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I'm sure that it does. I'm sure that it does.

Kyle O'Grady: And I like doing shorter stuff and I don't wanna just destroy myself to the point where I feel like I can't do the shorter stuff anymore because I do, I've been getting into trail running. and like, I like short thru hikes. I, I, I say, I don't think I'll do another long one after the CDT, but I will do plenty of, you know, 200 to 300 ish mile trails. Like I don't ever want to stop, like doing that length. Like I love, that's like the, that's like the sweet spot. I feel like I, 

Tayson Whittaker: I feel like what I'm learning is your channel is all about how to not actually hate hiking. It's about you quitting while you're ahead, you know, and, and, and then making it a lifelong pursuit that you can, you can stick with. So that makes way more sense. Now, I think that brings it. 

Kyle O'Grady: That's a good way to put it. No one's ever phrased it quite like that before. you can check out his podcast trail tales. Correct.

Kyle O'Grady: Yes, sir.

Tayson Whittaker:  And then why are you on tiktok? You go under a different alias?

Kyle O'Grady: No, I'm Kyle Hitch hiking on tiktok, man. Did tik tok. I hate it but I love it. It does. I spend a lot of time watching tiktok. I hate to say it like that, it's pretty entertaining. They really figured out the optimal, like, dopamine social media thing. It sucks.

 

Tayson Whittaker: Yeah, I'm, I'm like, too scared so I don't, I don't have Tik Tok personally and, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, but the problem is I love youtube and I end up on youtube shorts. So it's like,

Kyle O'Grady: It's the same thing, basically. Yeah, if, if you're already hooked on the shorts then you might as well stay off the, the, the talks as the kids call them. I don't know if any kids ever called it that, but I don't know everything.

Tayson Whittaker: Is there any other, any other places that people should, should follow you or, or, 

Kyle O'Grady: only fans, if not, just kidding.

Tayson Whittaker: So you're really making money?

Kyle O'Grady:  Yeah. No, I think you, I think you covered everything there. I appreciate coming on. This was, this was really fun and so, yeah, thank you, man. Seriously.

Tayson Whittaker: Thanks for coming on the show. We'll have to talk again.

Kyle O'Grady: Sounds good