EP 77 - Winter Backpacking in Deer Hollow

[00:00:00] Joe: It was supposed to be a simple fun overnighter. But for some of us the trip to Deer Hollow recreation area. Near our home in Cedar City, turn into a rough situation and temperatures, well, below freezing. What happened, what did we learn? Find out on this episode of the Live Ultralight podcast, powered by outdoor. Vitals. This podcast is all about inspiring you to get Outdoors. Showing you how to lighten your pack and

[00:00:25] Joe: build your confidence so you can start living your life. Full of Adventure. I am Joe. Tayson of Tyler

[00:00:34] Brigham: Brigham, I'm Derek. And yeah, we went on a work trip to Deer

[00:00:40] Joe: Hollow Recreation Area. Whose idea was it to go up there.

[00:00:47] Tayson: it was like, I don't know who's this specifically was, but we did cross country ski trip last year. That was Well enjoyed by a few of us. And so we've been planning on doing that again and that's makes the most sense that's designated for cross country. Skiing versus last time it was a bit rough. We were going through powder and you know Tiffin over in powders. The tough thing to come back

[00:01:10] Tayson: from on skis when you're new.

[00:01:12] Derek: Yeah, I think between Brigham and I we've been up a deer Hollow a number of times. And so we kind of both

[00:01:17] Joe: fed off each other's and enthusiasm for that place. So I do still think it was as far as a

[00:01:24] Derek: skiing port. Or than last year's ski trip

[00:01:27] Brigham: it was I thought it was collectively decided in the ultimate approval was left up to Joe which he met with much. Enthusiasm and said, yeah let's do it. Because now, what happened?

[00:01:39] Joe: All right. Get a song to go, right? Yeah. I don't remember any of that, but no brick of you went there, like a couple days before, right? The week previous.

[00:01:57] Joe: Turn out the way you expected.

[00:01:59] Brigham: I guess they're out will still there when we were there the next week?

[00:02:05] Joe: All right. Who wants to describe? What this what this area is?

[00:02:10] Derek: I can do that. Oh it's at the very top of the mountain right here by Cedar.

[00:02:15] Derek: And what they do is, it's a national Recreation Area. So Forest Service actually goes in and grooms Trails for day use. So if you want to have a packed intro to go showing on which kind of diffused, the purpose of snow shooting, you can do that, or you can just ski on. There's, you know, different types of cross, country, views, or winter. Skis, you can go there and do that for free

[00:02:38] Derek: basically, and it's maintained by the first service. Volunteers and oh, yes. And groups of volunteers will go and help. Take care of all this and so ultimately just makes cross-country skiing a lot easier. When you're not trying to forge your own trail through a bunch of powder. There's a lot of snow up there like I said, because the top. So I haven't packed in just nice to cover a lot of miles

[00:03:00] Derek: actually on these Trails. There's a big trail system that they grew actually in. Kind of the woods up there so you can go quite a few different directions. But it's kind of you can spend all day and have a great time up there.

[00:03:13] Joe: Yeah. So I had been cross country skiing For the first time when I was a teenager and that was all the last time. I had gotten cross country skiing. What was it about the trip? Last year that made you want to do it again. So, that was my first time ever being on Cross Country. Skis. there, there were

[00:03:42] Tayson: moments of joy and goodness

[00:03:45] Tayson: and it was like, man if this if we aren't like doing this, The wrong way per se, this could be a great time. It's waiting seems way more efficient than snow issues to get a little bit of enjoyment, out of skiing, down the hill. So just just kind of more fun and more efficient than snowshoes. So I think that kind of drove us. We we learned from last year, especially being a

[00:04:08] Tayson: little bit more in the beginner side that, you know, pushing Nordic, long skinny, skis through a lot of powders, kind of rough. And without Skin. We hard to go up hills and so it's like man if we have gone on in an area that was designated for this. is nothing but If it's so I want to give it a shot for sure in like a scenario where most people are, cross-country skiing.

[00:04:31] Tayson: Is this versus? Paving our own way.

[00:04:32] Joe: So Derek, rented the skis right? For the most part, we all went and checked in there with the boots

[00:04:41] Joe: they'd give us. Skis, they had given us and we went only like what three miles in how far in.

[00:04:48] Derek: Yeah, it's about three

[00:04:49] Joe: miles and then kind of camped a little off Trail. And yeah, that's where the fun. I think, really started, see

[00:05:03] Derek: in this podcast episode, you're probably gonna hear over and over again. It's all of us against Joe, and Joe is just been anti so, we're gonna,

[00:05:13] Derek: we're gonna gang up on him again because I think he's absolutely wrong. We

[00:05:17] Joe: won't let him hold the mic hostage, in all transparency. We had a film of a whole bunch of videos and because I hadn't been skiing, since I was a teenager, I was concerned from the get-go about filming a whole bunch of

[00:05:31] Joe: videos while on skis.

[00:05:34] Joe: Concerned about that. That turned out to be okay. We made it through that stuff just fine. In a way. You didn't even crash on the way you didn't crash is on the way in. I managed not to crash on the way out. The next day I did crash about six times and there was no one around me, but

[00:05:56] Joe: I've definitely sworn the most I've ever sworn at work, but

[00:05:59] Derek: in defense of cross country skiing, when you crash those six times, you were not filming. So, it wasn't because of the filming. Just because you're skiing. So my question

[00:06:10] Derek: I was still say that doesn't quite play it.

[00:06:12] Tyler: How many of the YouTube videos that I sent you? Did you watch? I watched. One. Okay.

[00:06:21] Joe: Didn't you only send me one? I sent you a couple. Okay, I only watched the one where, as long as you watch them, you put your feet in a v-shape. I don't

[00:06:29] Joe: even know what that means.

[00:06:30] Tyler: He couldn't learn how to cross country ski by watching a couple videos.

[00:06:34] Joe: Basically, just like walking. But downhill was terrifying. I was not, that's not for me. I was I can't be on a skateboard. I can't be out. He's going

[00:06:51] Joe: downhill. Just nothing like that.

[00:06:53] Joe: Where I'm on top of something. I can't control. Did you get in

[00:06:56] Tyler: the slots when you went down the hills? Yeah,

[00:06:59] Joe: yeah. Was gonna say, is that? I did that at night. Well, he said the tracks were awful. I know, know, the experience was awful. The tracks were smooth, I guess too smooth. I was going too fast. It was freaking me out. We'll get to it, but compare that to what we did last year, we were skiing down this road and the wind had blown so hard that it blew all the snow

[00:07:23] Tayson: off the road and it was just ice That was awesome. Oh, that was downhill Parts. Actually were pretty sketchy because he was gonna,

[00:07:34] Tyler: you were gonna like run out of snow and just awesome. Be on like blacktop. Yep. And then wipe out your head on blacktop, or ice or two feet of snow. It was

[00:07:45] Derek: so this year was just The cake and so smooth and easy for,

[00:07:50] Tayson: you know, if we're comparing it's the last year's triple East. Yeah.

[00:07:53] Tayson: All three of us that went Had a moment of falling down and I didn't, I don't think I started as much to get up. But Derek, he got smelling. I mean, he took a 30 minute break, trying to get a seized back on because the power packed into his binding last year,

[00:08:11] Derek: the ice head, like frozen into the binding on my skis and so, I had such a hard time getting my There. Chipping away at it, trying to figure out how to get my boot to stick in The

[00:08:26] Tayson: Binding. So I think everyone on this trip had an amazing time. Skiing even Maddie she felt once because of derp and, That's doing that. It was just Joe and the rest of us teacher for everyone listening here. There was

[00:08:40] Derek: also Joe's, always been before my wife was Maddie, she's she's never been one, she's never been winter, backpacking, but she's also never been customer. She's skiing, you know, we've gone a lot of other backpacking trips and different different activities, but this is the first time for the winter camping, and the cross country skiing, and she did great. And I will say that, like, for her first experience, I think that was a great trip.

[00:09:08] Joe: File. Okay. Um, I actually think the skiing was fine. It's fine. I'm being curmudgeonly, but I, I did. It was fine. It was Fun skiing out. I was pretty frustrated mostly because of the night before. No sleep. And that was trying to get back to the car as fast as possible and maybe that's why. Iraq a few times on the way there. Maybe I was just hurrying too much except for the

[00:09:40] Joe: one Hill where I tried to slow down. I couldn't And I still don't understand the videos instructions that

[00:09:48] Joe: Tyler gave me where he's like, you put your feet out in a V or something like that to slow yourself down I had no idea. What that was or

[00:09:56] Joe: how to do that

[00:09:57] Joe: or really how to like control the skis. I saw this like I guess you guys probably ran into the same couple. That's the next day

[00:10:04] Joe: when we were going out. And there they're just flying. I have no idea what they're doing with their feet. School. Yeah.

[00:10:20] Joe: Yeah, I was jealous. I didn't get to see him up close. Just

[00:10:23] Tyler: the hard part about that downhill. Was you have to get at least one foot out of the groomed track, in order to get your Edge to bite enough to slow down. So if you're just gonna be in the track, you're just committed for

[00:10:37] Tyler: a ride and it's like a little roller

[00:10:39] Joe: coaster know. There was definitely my niece, were not

[00:10:41] Joe: committed for the ride my knee's.

[00:10:45] Joe: I bent my knees down, you know, I was like, I see, people do this and didn't work. So now, so we got to Camp after filming a whole bunch of videos. You guys got

[00:10:58] Joe: to Camp a lot

[00:10:59] Joe: earlier than taste in her eye and we had a setup pretty soon after I got the SK. Zhow deep, the snow was, I think, like, in my mind, it wasn't that deep until you're off and only in those, like ski boots that they that we rented, bring them learned and was diving into the snow. I, I do think we need to talk about that. What the heck? Yeah. Was because it was

[00:11:25] Tayson: interesting about the snow, is it had a very light crust on top, but if you broke through the crust underneath, it was like quicksand like If you moved your feet, you just go deeper and deeper and deeper into the snow. And actually

[00:11:39] Tayson: in the video, the 41 below freezing video we did on YouTube. A lot of people to ask, like, why didn't

[00:11:45] Tayson: pack snowing against the side of that tent. That's why is it was the same type of snow where you hold it up. And it's just like sand in your hands. So, putting that up against the side of my tent would have just blown Sans know into my tent and everywhere but that was

[00:12:00] Joe: that was not very fun. I was

[00:12:02] Joe: cursing that sand I almost fell over the fire pit few of us almost on the fire pit. A few times because of this Put my head in it just dove in there

[00:12:13] Tyler: so I don't know why you're complaining about snow. That's the greatest snow on Earth.

[00:12:16] Tayson: That's you came up with that motto. It's Utah saying. And it's, it's just because

[00:12:22] Tyler: the air is really dry in Utah. So the snow becomes a really fine powder, which is amazing for skiing. But It's not amazing for packing snow around your tent or walking in. So

[00:12:36] Joe: after setting up a tent, I should have just kept my skis on. I mean, that was one of the things I was cursing, but when I went down in there and started getting snow in the boots, I was like, oh no.

[00:12:47] Joe: I should have Here

[00:12:49] Joe: and bring him has skaters. That are 12 feet long and he's digging his pit and it looks very comfortable you want. Well, the Gators

[00:13:01] Joe: I would have guessed the snow with like two and a half feet or three feet deep where we were but as Brigham is just digging and digging and digging. I was like wow this is a lot deeper like fortified feet deep. Yeah.

[00:13:15] Joe: I actually would like to hear what Brigham liked on the trip because I don't think I saw her talk to him the whole time. He was so, Better paint the contacts. The rest of us. We're using tents. Brigham was using a hot tent. Meaning more or less to a floorless tent with a titanium stove in there. And so, as you light up that titanium stove, it's gonna dig through the snow. And

[00:13:45] Joe: so he wanted to get down to the ground to set up his shelter, which seemed to like a great idea.

[00:13:52] Brigham: At first. Yeah, well yeah, when I first got there, my first thought was to stay on top of the snow. I you know, I started packing it down and then as I was kind of took my skis off and was maneuvering around. Everyone wants a while I break through and post hole down to like mid thigh. And so I thought I don't really want to. Encounter that like trying to roll over

[00:14:17] Brigham: in my sleep or something or just getting around inside the tent eating dinner and stuff. So so then I thought I'd better dig down because it was likely the heat of the stove, just Sink itself down. And so I I committed and then the first I thought I'll just dig down a couple feet to like the next icy layer and But it was just a lot more than a couple feet and

[00:14:47] Brigham: I still wasn't to the bottom. So then I was committed. I'm in this giant hole, so then I just Didn't want to have a crappy sleeping situation. So I figured the only way to actually do it. Proper was to just dig all the way down, and it took me several hours.

[00:15:04] Joe: And for those at home, by the way, it should be on our newest, YouTube video. There's some glimpses of Brigham taking his pit to China.

[00:15:14] Brigham: Yeah. Okay, you'll be watching like taste and set up his tent. But in the background you can see like a little shovel. He

[00:15:22] Joe: got out of the whole world.

[00:15:27] Joe: So what was it worth? It was that awesome titanium stove functional and

[00:15:33] Brigham: this cozy? I mean It was definitely goes, no dress, no oxygen to help.

[00:15:49] Brigham: It was good in the end. I slept pretty well and you

[00:15:54] Joe: said you were gonna sleep? Well for one of two reasons. Yeah, those series

[00:15:59] Brigham: Even if, when you dig that big of a hole, you'll either be tired enough that you'll sleep, well, no matter what, or you'll sleep well, because you're prepared a nice tense sight. so, So,

[00:16:10] Joe: which did you expect? Either either slept pretty well, is that the same seat outside stove or is it a different cells? Yeah. Um,

[00:16:23] Joe: well, how is your guys's night? Derek, Tyler.

[00:16:27] Derek: Well, Maddie and I we shared a two-person tent. So we got in there. We actually didn't immediately remove our skis. Because I figured as soon as I step off of that thing, I'm gonna go straight down through the snow. So we actually started stomping around with them and like a kind of

[00:16:42] Derek: a crisscross with their skis and jump. I was kind of jumping on my skis. How hard I Had packed

[00:16:48] Derek: or do it to get through that crust, that tastes management. But that actually worked really well, we set up two-person tent tracking people tent on top of the snow. Just use my same trekking poles. I've been skiing with and I grabbed a few dead branches from nearby dead tree and used those estate's and actually that worked really well because I didn't have to worry about trying to hack in the sand. Know

[00:17:14] Derek: around. You know, flimsy tiny little Stakes where that you know they probably just come out. Really fine snow. Really easy. I actually just shoved three foot long stick all the way down into the snow and was able to pitch a tent that way and those those sticks didn't budge. So that's what we did and we were actually really comfortable on our pads and We had some sleeping bags. I had a zero

[00:17:40] Derek: degree mad at negative 15. And overall we see pretty warm. The one thing that we did that I was actually really glad I've done. I never tried this before. Personally, I've always been comfortable enough. Just with a sleeping bag and whatever layers I'm wearing. So I never tried to actually boil water and put it in analogy and bottle to show of kind of in the bottom of my sleeping bag. But I

[00:18:01] Derek: did that for mad because I was like, well, this is the first time I wanted to keep coming with me even in the winter. I know she will in the spring and summer, but I want to do this all year. So I wanted to make sure she was extra warm. So I boiled that and shoved that analogy and bottled down inside her sleeping bag, and that worked awesome. Actually. Up until about

[00:18:20] Derek: five in the morning from like 9 p.m. to 5. It was warm, it was warm bottle, just kind of a heater down there for her. So Just talked about that a few times, you'll probably hear that. If you go back another podcast, I'm like never tried it but it actually is true. That is a second. I guess stamp of approval on that method. Keep your feet warm.

[00:18:44] Joe: Yeah, I wish I had. I wish I had done the same thing. What could I should? It's crazy. I remember when I first heard about that, They would stay warm though. I thought if you'd like people that did that, it would stay warm for an hour or maybe or something like that but no, it'll it'll stay warm for a long time, kind of the same thing of Water can hold heat or

[00:19:13] Joe: just, it's temperature really well. Even if you're out there and you don't want your water to freeze, sometimes you can do is just bury it in the snow. And the snow is an insulator and it'll not freeze which seems backwards But my bearing your water in the snow, you can oftentimes keep it from freezing. If you were to just put it in your tent vestibular or something. But yeah, water can hold

[00:19:34] Joe: on to it. I mean it's very stable and good at holding on to whatever it's cold or heat or whatever it is.

[00:19:40] Derek: And I don't know if we mentioned this already but I think we better just to get some context at that night. It got down to, I think about four degrees

[00:19:48] Tyler: Right, but it was forecast for like nine. But it definitely felt like it was

[00:19:54] Tayson: getting cold fast. The temperature eating we got was five. And someone else told us that morning that their car said four or three at the parking lot. So

[00:20:04] Tayson: it was right around cold. Air night, right? So you're well below freezing and zero in Celsius?

[00:20:12] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah, when we left, when we got on the skis around one in the afternoon, it was 30 degrees. Yeah. In full sunlight. So as soon as we got camp set up and the sunset, it got quite cold. Very quickly. Yeah we

[00:20:31] Joe: we so we tempted a fire.

[00:20:33] Tyler: We had a fire.

[00:20:34] Joe: It was their tired. Tyler worked hard and got a fire up and rolling.

[00:20:42] Derek: Chasing didn't believe in it, so we tried to put it out.

[00:20:43] Tayson: I Fell in the quicksands know and did put it out at one point. It's all the snow in which is disaster

[00:20:50] Tayson: well on the fire kept thinking in snow. So pretty.

[00:20:55] Tyler: Yeah. So it was a lot of work for what fire we had we, but

[00:21:00] Joe: we have it was a fire that worked long enough for us to have dinner around 5:00

[00:21:04] Tyler: for bigger. He's still bigger. Well, into the dark. Just in a way.

[00:21:12] Derek: I think it was

[00:21:13] Derek: I think we can give a little more

[00:21:14] Derek: credit that fire was there long enough to keep all of our feet want to warmed up our scene, Are We? There was nice actually for sticking your feet, kind of close to that fire hole and I boots were nice and toasty by the time, I went straight to my tent. My feet were not cold. So

[00:21:27] Joe: constantly got because those boots had such a shallow Like they were like barely classified as mids. I would feel like a mid boot. It was really hard to keep the snow out of them without Gators. Typically, I just use the satu pants. Gator and Gator system. And that works really well for me with my snow boots, but they have a much taller You know, top on them. So those things I got

[00:21:52] Joe: snowed down the back of those boots and then a cake in there. And so my feet, I have to put it right on top of the fire. I'd get him warm. And if I did anything they'd just get cold again until I got into my tent so between that and I mean I had a good dinner and had some good snacks and we fought the fire quite a bit but the smoke

[00:22:11] Joe: was everywhere. I don't know how this this is probably the worst fire I've ever seen for the smoke, just being in, everyone's faces at all times and it took days. I could smell smoke for like four days after, like, it was that cake in my nose, hairs or something? I don't know. But it was, it was insane. It took two showers. I think it off of my exterior, but I can still

[00:22:35] Joe: smell it. I mean, it was I was the most intense

[00:22:38] Joe: Smoky fire. I've had a long time,

[00:22:41] Joe: those those boots were the were the reason why the trip is not a positive. It might in my mind I really like all I'm going through is like the things that I learned off of this trip. I haven't done a winter, a real winter trip and years. So like there were things like, yeah, I want Gators, I want better, winter boots for this situation. I don't want to just like assume the

[00:23:05] Joe: ski people have like these like the boots felt fine when they were there, but on the skis, they were not. They were not insulated enough and I had really lived my feet took To get warm. When I finally got to my sleeping bag, which, you know, I took a negative 15 Summit Great bag. Probably my favorite bag that we have here.

[00:23:30] Joe: Top quilts. Yeah. Take all that stuff. I'm gonna get that negative 15 degrees Summit. Joe

[00:23:37] Derek: was that guy in the office that also You know, when he's called he's cold I run

[00:23:45] Derek: and so he can see him fairly regularly running around different parts of the office wearing some jacket or coat. And that's, that's pretty normal In fairness to Joe.

[00:23:55] Tyler: So, like so it doesn't sound like we're just sitting here railing on Joe and he's

[00:24:02] Tyler: Got horrible judgment. No doesn't have is a lot of experience. So a lot of the stuff that comes intuitive To to us does not enter Joe's mind. So, you know, while the rest of us have the same boots, pretty much like Joe really struggled with his feet because there's certain things, Joe just doesn't know that don't enter his mind, like, You have to be constantly moving or if you're going to go

[00:24:35] Tyler: to bed and your feet are cold, you have to warm your feet up. And the only way to do that is to move your feet to walk around start pumping blood generate body heat. So

[00:24:45] Tyler: or the algae. So

[00:24:46] Tyler: the fact that you have cold feet Joe, it's it's Okay, because now Fieri or anything like that? You do have a body of experience one, you know, one experience that you can refer back on because you're definitely not going to want that to happen again. No,

[00:25:04] Derek: I think all of us had cold feet actually at some point. I was that was everybody. I think one thing that maybe could possibly be different though. Is that Joe you you didn't really stay up for our fire too much

[00:25:17] Joe: know. I was getting cold. I was starting at my feet but it was going everywhere

[00:25:25] Derek: to me. That was the number that was a number one, easiest way for me to

[00:25:30] Derek: warm up my feet.

[00:25:32] Derek: Because my feet were just cold as well after setting up camp walkin' around. I was trying to take pictures of things or film a couple things as well but by the time I actually got to the fire and started heating up dinner, my feet were like iced but sticking them kind of closer to the fire where it was close enough. That good warm him up. It eventually did hit him up to

[00:25:53] Derek: where I was like,

[00:25:54] Derek: wow. not only are my feet, not

[00:25:57] Derek: Cold. They're actually like really warm. And at that point, then I was okay going to bed because I kind of Maddie as well. Like we can't go to bed till your feet are warm. So I kept asking her feet warm yet when they were like, okay now go to bed whenever you want but we're not going to bed any sooner and that's I think that's one thing that you know kind of

[00:26:15] Derek: bring him talking about is You know, you realize, you know, if I go to bed now and my feet are cold, is this gonna be harder to warm up in my tent because there's only so much moving around. You can do in your tent and that for me, that's kind of the big thing. I gotta either run around and really get a workout going. Or I'm not going to bed because I'll

[00:26:36] Derek: just be cold. It won't go to sleep anyway. So

[00:26:38] Joe: Yeah. In general, I just have cold clammy feet. It's like my default mode to, so, I don't know. Switch socks in your tent. Yeah, of course.

[00:26:46] Joe: Yeah, and yeah, two

[00:26:47] Tyler: two pairs of socks down booties, probably save my feet.

[00:26:53] Joe: Did it? I did it. Interesting test. Actually,

[00:26:56] Tyler: I forgot to tell you guys about this, but at 2 tests going on, when I got into the tent I made sure to get my feet really warm. Before I went but then taste and stepped on the fire. As I was like, I'm not waiting for the fire to get fixed. I'm warm, I'm just gonna go to bed. So I went in there and you're welcome by the way. Yes.

[00:27:19] Tyler: I have my first test was because I had sat on the snow while building the fire and I've been moving around a bunch, my butt got wet. Like all the way through all three layers, my my underwear, my dragon wool and my pants were completely soaked through. So I knew that I was like, okay, the negative, 15 degree sleeping bag. I'm plenty warm. I should be able to get these three layers

[00:27:46] Tyler: to dry while I'm sleeping. And you, most of the time I've been Kind of lacking confidence and drying clothes when getting into the sleeping bag. So usually I would strip down and not have as much on, but like these should drive. This is a really warm sleeping bag. So that was testing number one test. Number two was I wanted to test the dry socks. Before bed Theory. And so I have two

[00:28:16] Tyler: pairs of wool socks. I had the wool socks that I was wearing while we skied, and then I had a fresh pair of wool socks but The cold wool socks from being in my pack, you know. So I was like, okay I'm gonna leave one. Wall sock on that I've had on all day and I'm gonna put one sock on the other foot. That's cold, but totally dry. And because like, you

[00:28:42] Tyler: know, a lot of times, like we just asked, Joe, did you change your socks at the end? When I, when I went to bed, it took a little while for my feet to be like really

[00:28:53] Tyler: toasty warm. But there was no difference between one sock

[00:28:56] Tyler: or the other like no difference. Well is wool and insulates whether it's wet or dry so that like that was a good one for me to test that out. But then all three of my layers. My Pants, thermals and underwear. We're dry by about 11. Pretty good.

[00:29:19] Derek: Yeah, I had a lot of confidence in being able to dry out. If I just wear them to bed. So I Always if I have

[00:29:26] Tayson: yeah, we were in Beaver. You just had like, he's looking what? Yeah, from being so all day long. I'm just kidding with all my stuff. But I

[00:29:37] Derek: was driving. It worked. It does. All right, this is just the best way to do it because I don't want to feel this way in the morning. So yeah.

[00:29:47] Joe: Dry skin. So I'll keep the cloth the wet clothes in the bag, somewhere, if I need to, but I want dry clothes touching my skin. Possible. Yeah.

[00:29:57] Joe: so, I feel really Cold. And so I do like to switch mine, but I go as far as when I switch my wool socks.

[00:30:04] Joe: I actually let them air out for a second. I kind of like rub my hands on until I can fill they're not damp anymore and they put my wool socks on. Because my feet, they just do, they sweat or get damp. And then, even if I just switch the socks super fast like there's still moisture on my feet and so, it kind of like freeze them for half a second, trying to

[00:30:22] Joe: get some airflow around them, get them right out. And I'll put the second set on the that's always been my. Way I've done it, I like nice dry layers. Speaking of sand drive, we did have the 18th foam pads 1 Inch foam pads that we all brought probably. Well, probably helped us from getting hypothermia. Let's say. That night actually, it was really nice. It was really nice to take those 1/8 inch

[00:30:54] Joe: foam pads by the fire and be able to put that down on the ground. Not you get your butt wet and also not have to track in a chair basically. So these are something that we are that we

[00:31:04] Joe: now sell here at Outdoor Vitals. And that's what this episode is brought to you by. They are great for layering. Once again, using as a seat, we have a short version, that's a 1.5 Oz, and a regular, that's 2.5 oz I think and yeah. Do you want to talk about like positive in a winter situation like

[00:31:26] Joe: this? What the 18th are used for?

[00:31:28] Tayson: Yeah, I mean to be completely honest, they're they're not actually designed for a winner like this. It's probably probably better off to have a slightly thicker close up on that depending on your sleeping mat, right? So, if you're sleeping, as a three season, Matt like a three to four hour value, you're kind of pushing the limits on them, but what they still allow you to do is keep all your snow gear

[00:31:51] Tayson: out of the snow. They Like sit on something. That's not snow, keep dry. It's in the winter time. It's way easier to stay dry than it is to dry out. Son, it's out longer, it's hot, you can drag things out really quickly in the winter. Eat things, as dry as you possibly can just way harder to dry things out, and they really do help for that. But yeah, if you go back

[00:32:12] Tayson: in a lot of our footage through the whole year, you'll see, most of using those throughout the entire year. And they've been a massive game changer for me. Just being able to stretch out, lay down on the ground, do some yoga, triple them up and have a super comfy, thick pad. When I just want like a little square, I put them under my sleeping mat every single night, which helps them not

[00:32:33] Tayson: slide around, it offers protection from underneath and it offers a little bit extra R value like a half hour value. So, It just a massive staple and you can crunch them up into basically any size or however you want to pack them which is very helpful as well. So,

[00:32:49] Tyler: yeah, they're more they're like a, they're multi-purpose tool really like it. I wouldn't think of them as a sleeping pad. That's just kind of one of the functions. You can use them as they're one. They're inexpensive, they're really lightweight and they're really versatile. You can. Make multiple uses out of well, I just imagine because our path is not.

[00:33:12] Joe: Our value pad, like the one that we have currently on the winter pad, we have things under development but the one that we have our standard pad is not is not made for that. But yet with that pad, And with the the 1/8 inch foam pads, I had a short and a regular that I stacked on top of each other. It was enough. It was enough to keep me from, you know,

[00:33:34] Joe: I was able to sleep after my feet had. Well, I think this would be an interesting talking point. Let's see if me and bring them touched on this. We were just traveling together for the last couple days and I believe that even though like I asked you I've kind of trained all you guys like, what are you getting cold from underneath? Was your pad, making you cold? And you kind of have

[00:33:54] Tayson: learned to pay attention to that, but I think it's still very hard to fully grasp If you might not feel

[00:34:00] Tayson: cold but it can

[00:34:01] Tayson: still be pulling heat out of you. So take into consideration you slept in a negative 15 year back, Tyler's in a negative 15 degree bag. Derek was in a zero degree bag. Brigham was in a 15 degree bag. So positive 15 degree bag but he had a different pad that Is warmer and he slept with sounds like warmer than most of the people in Camp. But I also had a hot stove

[00:34:23] Tayson: and was not go out unless you got really good cold days,

[00:34:29] Brigham: so does not heat up the tent when you're asleep. So that was the stove was off. When I went to sleep, And yeah, the stove doesn't provide any more while you're sleeping but what you did have was probably a little bit less cool airflow under you since you were down in a hole versus us being right up on the surface. I think that for sure helped and so Yeah, so I wanted

[00:34:58] Brigham: to use a 15 degree bag just to really see, you know, test its limits but keeping in mind. That doesn't mean that I'm like gonna go about it carelessly or recklessly, I still slept in a Nova Pro jacket and, you know, with the hood on and so, I didn't do anything different on my lower half, but on the upper half of an over project. Yeah, I was plenty more. That is an

[00:35:27] Derek: interesting point because I

[00:35:28] Derek: know with Pro that night in zero degree bag, and I was warm, but I doubt I would have been as warm without that I would Pro and I did not have a winter sleeping pad, so That is it definitely an interesting

[00:35:45] Joe: thing. I took my Nova off, I put her around my butt because the side sleeper and that'll crush the insulation. Basically if you're rolling around like that, if you're talking about the pads underneath you, I didn't start feeling that until about 6 a.m. really like, but I think I'm what I began to develop over a body of experience in using A bunch of different paths is that there's a difference between a

[00:36:12] Tayson: pad keeping you warm. a petrol and a pad like, Noticeably keeping you cold. Let's say I think a lot of you guys are sitting between like noticeably keeping you cold and neutral, so it's like slowly draining but it's not enough to really

[00:36:27] Derek: there's all tell ya.

[00:36:29] Brigham: There's also a difference between feeling it and it actually happened by the time you start feeling it, it's been happening. That means like It's slowly and gradually, it's the reverse, you know, boiling a frog, right? It's the same thing. It's just slowly sucking the heat out and then once you start noticing it, it's your your to the point where is way harder to actually reverse it now,

[00:36:54] Tayson: I think all this being said, what I would answer to all of these things as we are, developing a path that's going to be significantly warmer than our current path. But the path that we've even got underdevelopment is still going to be very much at three season pass. Yes, you can layer it. You can use it into the winter, but Be very conscious of the R-value of the pad. We have a

[00:37:15] Tayson: video released over a year ago, talking about it's like titled 80% of Backpackers sleep cold because of this. And it's got a bunch of views, like 100,000 plus

[00:37:24] Tayson: views, but that is like one of the biggest takeaways I think people could learn from

[00:37:28] Tayson: is really know what your path is and what it is not and and like just like Brigham mentioned. Like by the time you think your pad is getting you cold? It's already. Second, you get out of you for a while, so it's something to pay attention to especially in those winter seasons. Just gets magnified.

[00:37:47] Joe: All right. Well Tayson,

[00:37:49] Joe: we have the video just released

[00:37:54] Joe: You want to tell us about your night? Awesome. Hyper focusing on that. Yeah. So Life was good. I was I

[00:38:08] Tayson: skied in. It was great, had a good dinner. I was great went into my tent and I noticed that the

[00:38:13] Tayson: pad was soft. and I thought

[00:38:16] Tayson: that's just stretch the fabric stretched out and cold air. So I opened it up and I

[00:38:22] Tayson: blew air into it and

[00:38:24] Tayson: as soon as I was done, I could hear noise coming out of the valve. But may even back up a little bit. When I popped the valve open, I blew it up before that. There was glue all over the valve and I was a little nervous because that pad has been tested a few times here by a different number of people. And then we sent it off to get our value tested

[00:38:44] Tayson: at a university and this is the first time we've gotten it back from the University. So while the university had it, they had put glue on the valve. So must have been leaking from previous people using it or the valve or something and their way of quickly fixing it was the slap glue around the valve. Closed it up test the pad. Send it back to us. And when they glued it, they

[00:39:05] Tayson: had actually got glue on the inner valve and I could not get it to seal. So first, I was blown up and I could hear a little bit and I put the cap on him like well hopefully that'll hold that kind of wait and wait and I'd slowly lose air and open it up. And It became an issue really quick because, you know, like this no amount of insulation, down, whatever is

[00:39:27] Tayson: going to keep you warm laying on the snow. Down is going to collapse. It's not gonna insulate and you're just gonna suck the heat out of you all night long. And so I kind of have to start making some I had a few good moments in their I was some good snacks had a hot drink, you know, while I'm playing around with all this. But now it was it was pretty much

[00:39:49] Tayson: from 8 p.m. 8:00 till about 11:00. I was in pad repair. So, I was trying different things at the pad valve. And then it came to the point where I decided I've got to get even more committed. And

[00:40:04] Tayson: I took out my Tenacious Tape repair kit, and I blew the pad up as hard as I possibly could. But the valve on it and then glued everything about the valves and tried to seal it. That way, it takes hours for that stuff to cure. So I laid on my normal temperatures and normal temperatures. So, I laid on my 8th inch foam pad for an hour while I was watching some Netflix

[00:40:29] Tayson: and drinking some hot cocoa actually. I didn't drink hot cocoa. I didn't have Audrey because I was too scared that if I drink the Sleepy chai if I had to walk out and I was gonna be all sleepy. So I just I boiled water and put it in my bag, just preemptively, like planning on staying that I get to work. Blow I was blowing on the valve times, trying to get it

[00:40:50] Tayson: to cure, because it takes eight to 10 hours, to cure. And he was after an hour, it looked good enough, it wasn't sticky anymore. It was like notice. Flat. And so, then I climbed on it and more or less instantly, my butt was hitting the ground and I kind of laid on it. Different ways, trying to get it to work. And It became pretty apparent, pretty quick, but it wasn't gonna work.

[00:41:13] Tayson: I popped it out back open, and then it was all, it

[00:41:15] Tayson: was all. From there, there's no saving it. So basically, by the time all of this pattern pair and stuff had been going on, it was about 11 p.m. at night when I realized I got no option but the hike out of here or have. very like a suffer Fest of a night where I just be rolling over a constantly trying to Decide that's on the bottom snow side. That's freezing. Roll over

[00:41:40] Tayson: freeze. The other side while I warm that side up and it just, it would have been a miserable night. So, I decided to hike out at 11:00 at night. Fearless leader. I've been I think Joe's a little bit because I I debated for a while. I haven't, I asked Tyler. I'm like do you think I should go talk to Joe

[00:42:02] Tayson: even the bed pretty? You know, pretty cold. I want, you know, maybe he wants

[00:42:07] Tayson: to hike out with me, I don't know. I would have gone if I just looks like he's, you know, no lights on no movement, no noise. And I'm like, all right, sweet peacefully in their Which you were right.

[00:42:23] Joe: I didn't go to sleep till 2 a.m. no. It was over there. Chuckling watching his show. Yeah, he was having a great time.

[00:42:34] Joe: I didn't think hiking out was an option, so I just had to go with no on my feet warmed up at about like, 11:30 at night and I'd gone to bed at like, 7:30 8:00 like the sun,

[00:42:45] Joe: it was like, yeah, cuz I went pretty and these guys were getting out. Yeah,

[00:42:51] Joe: so like four hours of Hell Followed by. Yeah. I was like having to keep my feet warm.

[00:43:05] Joe: Or trying to warm up my feet. Well, I just I just wish that I had a camera running when we all put our heads out in the morning, like when the sun comes over the mountain, we all kind of hung out in our tents waiting for some direct sunlight knowing that the tents were gonna be like Frozen and crafted to take down and stuff. So, as the sun's coming over, I'm watching

[00:43:31] Tyler: the sun come up through the one best of you. And I look out the other rest of you and Joe post his head out and bring him like standing up. And as I did you guys here tastes and leave and they're like, what? And you'll like, I

[00:43:44] Joe: can't believe you. I wish I would have gotten on camera because it was so

[00:43:52] Derek: This is him thinking,

[00:43:54] Joe: what the heck? Oh, we were filming a video. That was that was obviously survived this in summer gear, whatever it was like three season gear for winter and

[00:44:05] Joe: so that was the extra surprise there. Like, oh wow, we really left. I know if I would have got back. What did you say? 15 minutes

[00:44:21] Tyler: earlier? You would have been there before. I could tell everyone.

[00:44:27] Derek: Yeah, Maddie, and I got up literally about 15 minutes before you start rolling in because we were just walking around at that point.

[00:44:33] Tayson: Then you come strolling like what Yeah. So

[00:44:37] Tayson: I think it would be interesting. I want to back up just for a second one. I want to back up and say Joe. I do think your feet were higher than your head and I believe as a guy with four circulation all that have found that, that's a big deal. I take my water bottle. Now, I'll lay it on my pad and if I can see that the water is tilted, the

[00:44:55] Tayson: One Direction I know, and even a little bit, I have personally found that that can limit circulation and cause cold feet. So one more tip I especially find that when I was hammock. Camped. Man. that that's like exponentially worse, but No. So I think, I think that it's a really good question because I think you could pose a question of like, did I did did this trip fail right? Or like what's

[00:45:23] Tayson: the worst case scenario? Most people like they get so freaked out about like, man. What if this happened? What if this happened? What if this happened? Well, that's exactly what this trip was. Like the worst thing. Happened. And really when you're thinking about unless you're in. Crazy Back Country, Alaska or in

[00:45:39] Tayson: some other crazy places, most of the time. Put your gear on and you could hike out of there. Is it going to be a long night? Yeah. It's gonna be a long night but moving You're Building body heat as long as you know and so on so forth and so that was like a worst case scenario. And and really Had a great ski up. Like I really did like I was 20

[00:46:00] Tayson: minutes into. Warm. I was warm. I turned my headlamp off and I was skiing with nothing but Moonlight that Hill that you wrecked on. I just committed. I went down that with no headlight. I just got in the tracks and I just let it take me down the hill and flipping down through the Shadows. Couldn't see my feet just committed and you know, but it was a great ski out and it's

[00:46:21] Tayson: like that's worst case scenario guys. That's the worst case scenario in this situation, not every situation. There's there's been scenarios where like when we were on high line. For instance that would have been a much harder more miserable walk out right in the middle of the night where in the middle of a Wilderness Zone, 12 miles in the nearest Trailhead, which is in the middle of nowhere Wyoming. But still like there's

[00:46:42] Tayson: options and I think that's something that that is a good takeaway from this of like one. Your gear should never fail like this. You should you? Just your gear before, that's a big lesson, like I should have blown that pad up before I ever left it touched way too many hands before I had used it last and you should always know your gear in that way, two. I also think that In

[00:47:03] Tayson: most situations, like you could have patched the pack. That was like, I don't know how you get glue on about, I mean, that's pretty rare thing. And it just wouldn't not seal because it had that extra bubble of Stuff on the valve. But yeah. Like in a situation, the worst case scenario like you still have options and and, you know, don't be so terrified, I guess of some of that stuff because

[00:47:29] Tayson: I don't like the hike out really wasn't bad and I, I did not get a lot of sleep. Because I hiked out and then I actually ended up driving home and then I drove back up the next morning. So I got about four hours of sleep that night, but Like that was that was the worst case of all of it for hours to sleep instead of eight hours of sleep or something. You know,

[00:47:49] Tyler: when I heard you ski back at in the middle of the night, I was like I was freaking jealous man. Because of the the Moonlight like because I would have loved to ski like go for like a Moonlight ski like I could just I love being out in the Moonlight, it's in the winter time when everything is just glowing and Yeah, just

[00:48:09] Derek: before heading to bed, I was actually just pausing a little while this to look at the stars, the moon had come up when we were all heading to our tents and stuff, but the stars were amazing this time of year and yeah, I agree when Maddie actually, we both woke up at somewhere around, we were both awake at 5. and, The moon was still up, it was still really dark and she

[00:48:36] Derek: suggested, hey, why don't we just get up and go ski around? And I wish I would have taken her up on that. I would I'd know she was serious as her first time. Like are you just saying that? Are you like, just teasing? So I didn't really act but I wish we did because that would have been

[00:48:50] Derek: phenomenal time to go enjoy

[00:48:52] Tayson: your body. Puts off a lot of heat when you're moving,

[00:48:55] Tayson: right? Like you talked about hypothermic drills and stuff like that. And one of the protocols for the military is to just put on all the closing clothes, you have and just start walking, just start hiking even if they're soaked, even if they're soaking wet. Your body can generate a lot of heat. So yeah you like when I got out of my sleeping bag, I got really cold really fast but within 15

[00:49:14] Tayson: minutes of going down that trail I was super comfortable and the rest of the ski was great. So I don't know, I don't know. There's more to glean from that but I, you know, turn around the next morning, came back in. Picked up my gear finished filming videos with you guys and went home, but I think there's lessons to learn about checking gear and knowing your gear and stuff like that, but

[00:49:35] Tayson: I think it's also just nice to know sometimes that and worst case scenario, like you still can have options in it. might not be as bad as you possibly think it could be, but All right. Well guys, feel free to send us your comments. Questions about backpacking pool outdoor stories or ideas for future episode topics. If you think, if we think it will bring value to our audience, will, we will read

[00:50:00] Joe: it on the show, and you can send them my comments, commenting, on our live. Ultralight podcast YouTube channel, or you can send us an email at Live Ultralight podcast@gmail.com. So on last week's episode or Last Time episode one last week

[00:50:13] Joe: about backpacking food Kimberly commented as a nurse Who backpacks it's not just the calories, it's the nutrition provided Of course, we can get through a through hike, eating trash, but most, all of those hikers will tell you, it took months to get their bodies back to a healthy condition. Balance is everything just listening to you talk about butter and freedoms made my gallbladder. Ache At the very least,

[00:50:40] Joe: the very least records should pack vitamins. There are companies that make nutrition-packed, freeze dried food Trail. Ready is one of my favorites? I don't know if you guys have ever had that.

[00:50:51] Joe: You can buy a box with 18, Gourmet, soups,

[00:50:55] Joe: they're full of veggies. And legumes, I have the CDT in front of me. So I have these for resupply boxes, along with the peak refuel meals that are really good. Thanks for all the tips and thank you for the comment Kimberly. We didn't talk about what we

[00:51:13] Tayson: Yeah. I have some thoughts about your Trail. Mentioned freeze, dryers, you know?

[00:51:22] Tayson: Yeah. Yes, we do have some content coming on, freeze dryers, we have a Harvest, Right? Freeze dryer, that did. Its first initial trial run today. According and we won't talk about it but that's Ice Cream Sandwich. I

[00:51:40] Tyler: unwrapped ice cream sandwiches and now there's a lot of ice cream that needs to be cleaned out. but, But

[00:51:48] Joe: that isn't the only thing we put in

[00:51:49] Tayson: and this is our helping our case with her either. The first thing, we freeze dry ice ice cream sandwiches.

[00:51:56] Tyler: But there is pineapple and mango in there.

[00:52:02] Tayson: And taquitos. So we got, we got a little bit of nutrition in there instead of pigment.

[00:52:13] Tayson: I'm funny things, but

[00:52:16] Tyler: This is just our test run. We'll get serious about good nutrition. When it's certainly when we're gonna

[00:52:21] Derek: time, we're gonna freeze dry, some Smoked Meats,

[00:52:24] Tayson: and some other stuff that's gonna be I'm very excited about our foods,

[00:52:29] Joe: but back to Joe back to me. She liked to break a break. I think to bring new people on that have that are like newer to backpacking. We're gonna, we're gonna send

[00:52:39] Tyler: them through a Brigham mentorship

[00:52:41] Joe: before. They like, can be fully vested on the

[00:52:45] Brigham: happy to have you. is a very disciplined, he's very disciplined with his

[00:52:55] Joe: No cars. Just say your diet. You're not that disappointment. My diet of game like 15 pounds. Well, that's I don't know what, I don't know what that is, but fast forever and you eat very limited.

[00:53:09] Tyler: Meat and fat based foods. But so like Joe took a meat stick.

[00:53:15] Joe: Yeah. Like you know

[00:53:17] Tyler: sausage stick by nine inches long summer sausage about yeah, it's like 3,000 calories and that was just, that's what the Joe brought. So yeah.

[00:53:26] Joe: That was literally just chunk of meat and fat growing up

[00:53:30] Tyler: and wrapped up in a piece of plastic. So, so just so you know, like, Diets in everyday. Life are great and everything. But you don't really want to do that, when you're On the trail. I

[00:53:43] Joe: don't recommend my diet for other people. Well,

[00:53:46] Tyler: you just don't show your diet when you're back when you're home, go ahead. But when when you need like extreme so

[00:53:53] Tyler: we've been sufficiently chastised by our nurse and you should take note and I would agree, like can't just be

[00:54:02] Tyler: You know, trying to mess with you.

[00:54:03] Tayson: We've seen it both ways. So proper nutrition. Joe is like kind of doing it's not keto, but it's kind of like keto, right? You're not really doing carbs and stuff, my daily basis but you're not eating like a summer sausage. Only right? That's like that's like taking your current diet and kind of pushing it to an extreme a little bit. Yeah, I wouldn't normally just we've seen somewhere. So, we've also seen

[00:54:26] Tayson: other employees in the past. have super extreme diets in the office, but then when they went out on the trail and were burning calories, they decided that they could have nothing but like Sour Patch Kids and soda. We don't recommend either of these. To me, we don't stand behind that. The best thing is the keep consistent nutrition with how you're already, fueling your body. Ideally, and tweak it from there, in a positive direction.

[00:54:55] Tyler: And keep sending your dietary nutrition questions to us because we are experts. Yeah our dietitians doctors.

[00:55:04] Joe: Hey tablets. I have vitamins when I go. I know she she wants the last one. It was actually she's actually I think saying that we that what we were saying is right? Because I've my whole full circle thing is that you can't be calorie positive. So you may as well eat the food you like and get good variety and I talked about bringing vitamins and my greens drinks on the trail. So

[00:55:27] Joe: all right, so in addition to comments, guys, you can leave positive iTunes reviews and we will read them on the show and we got one, we got one from booner Kill. The name on iTunes, great info, keep it up. Thank you for the five star review guys. I think that's gonna be it for this episode when someone has something to add Any last words?

[00:55:54] Derek: No, I think he goes back to what Jason said like about winter backpacking in general whether it's trying cross country. Skiing for the first time, you're going to Snowshoe somewhere, you're just gonna get out in the snow and camp out. It's worth trying, it is definitely worth trying and especially if you're considering the worst case scenario and you can live with that. And by all means go and give it a shot,

[00:56:13] Derek: obviously, for tasting. It was a little bit of a fiasco on this last trip, but for my wife and I we

[00:56:19] Derek: loved it. And for me that was probably

[00:56:20] Derek: one of my favorite winter backpacking trips yet. I got with my wife, we got a cross country ski, which I think, is a blast and we stay warm and which I have not been able to say on every winter, backpacking trip but I've ever done since, you know, being a kid. So you know, if you prep right and You have the things that you need, you gotta have a great time and

[00:56:42] Derek: honestly, at a really memorable experience is like taste and just consider the worst case if you can live with that. You know perfect, go for

[00:56:50] Tayson: it, give it a shot even if it's your first time. I think for us a lot of us in the office, we started camping in the winter season naturally because we just Camped all year. We build a lot of confidence in our gear and our skill sets and all that. And then you're in the winter. You're like now let's just go do this. Okay, I don't recommend like the first time you

[00:57:11] Tayson: ever go backpacking that you do winter backpacking, or if you do it, do it. You know, your car or something like that, but I feel like if you start backpacking or

[00:57:20] Tayson: camping all year long, once you're backpacking,

[00:57:22] Tayson: really isn't scary because you just build incremental confidence and all of your gear, all of your skill sets knowledge and it just starts compiling to where? Yeah, people literally think we're crazy sometimes like in that 401 below freezing video. It's funny when people approach me that I know that watch that video they're like you're freaking crazy and in my head I'm like what was crazy about that. it doesn't seem crazy to

[00:57:48] Tayson: me because like, there was a moment where it sucked and I almost had to hike out but like, I could face that worst case scenario and I know what that looks like and like so on so forth or just sleeping out in the winter. And I think those incremental, Levels of building your confidence and expertise and all knowledge and comfort with your gear paste. Dividends to, where Winter, backpacking will not seem.

[00:58:10] Tayson: Like, we're some crazy group of people trying to win her backpack and maybe my next winter, Joe will agree. I think some upgrades I need to make to a few things in order to Winter backpack properly, I think. But I'm glad I went because I learned a few things, but you'll remember that all year. And my next winner, you're gonna be

[00:58:31] Brigham: An excellent without this. And I just comes down to your preparation like if if you get the chance to go on a trip like this but you're not totally confident in your gear or yourself, then go to a practice run in a campground or something and

[00:58:47] Brigham: and kind of hash

[00:58:49] Brigham: out whatever things you're not confident in like where there's less risk. There's been a lot of times where, if we're going on a trip, I always make sure I did it even before this one tastes and throws a new tent at me. I'm not here before.

[00:59:04] Brigham: If I don't know, if I'm gonna be able to set this up in the snow, so I

[00:59:07] Brigham: went and said it up at home and then I was confident in it. After that, you know, it's the same for sleeping. If, if you're going to sleep in cold weather and you haven't done it, do it in your backyard. I know Jason's tested, tons of product just in the backyard, you know. Just trying to get the down to whatever temp you're trying to get to or whatever. So um Do the

[00:59:29] Brigham: prep and then you can have a good time when you're out.

[00:59:31] Tayson: It's been a long time since I've done a good backyard test. We've been consistent enough on our monthly trips. I have not had to do a backyard test in a while but that was a regular occurrence in the beginning. Days so yeah.

[00:59:43] Joe: All right guys, thank you for listening.