Tayson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast. Today we have a very special guest who has set an FKT in his past. He actually has two of them, although we spent most of our time today talking about the one on the John Muir Trail. Obviously, if you haven't heard of John Muir Trail, you better crawl out from underneath a rock or just look it up. It's one of the most famous and iconic trails I'd say here in America. And our speaker has actually set the FKT on that. So, let me introduce him and let you know a little bit about his background before we roll this podcast. It was a fantastic, fantastic podcast, so I'm really excited that you're here. But if you are new to this podcast, this is the Live Ultralight Podcast. That is powered by UltrAspire and our goal of this podcast is to inspire you to have more confidence, to be more lightweight, more capable so that you can go and live a life full of adventure. Um I've recently been able to go and do a little bit of exploring, I guess you could per se, in uh Germany and Austria.
Tayson: And it really I'm going to have to do a podcast on it because it was a phenomenal trip and I'd love to share some of the experiences there. But really this concept of lightening up your your backpack, developing more confidence in your gear, played a big role in that. We I I was able to travel for 9 days out of a single backpack, have a phenomenal time, stay extremely comfortable, and just feel very inspired. To do that. So, if that resonates with you, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. All right, so let me go ahead and introduce our guest for today. Aurelien Sanchez is a French runner and backpacker who holds the record for the self-supported fastest known time for the south-to-north route on the John Muir Trail. In fact, he's held the record for this trail for the self-supported version of this from 2018 all the way until this year, 2022, which is absolutely incredible. In fact, if you look him up today, you'll still still see that he holds the record from south to north, although it's been beaten from north to south now. It took him three attempts, which is really interesting part that we unpack here in the podcast. But when he did complete it on that.
Tayson: Third attempt, he completed it in 3 days, 3 hours and 55 minutes. Aurelien is kind of an enigma. He's not as well known out there. Maybe it's because he's he's got that French background, but I'm not totally sure. You'll only be able to find him through his YouTube channel where you can go and watch a video of these efforts or through his Instagram account. So I do encourage you to go look him up there, but it was very very fun to unpack what makes him tick, what pushed him to go and complete this trail. It was very interesting from tales of hallucinations to unpacking why it took three attempts and what he learned from those different attempts, and what he's doing next, which is also something of very I find very very interesting. Hopefully one. Day we'll be able to even have him back on the podcast to hopefully talk about his end goal of competing in that race. So without further ado, I'll go ahead and roll the podcast right here. I hope you guys enjoy it. I definitely did and we'll catch on the other side of it.
Tayson: All right, Aurelien, I'm super excited to have you on here and I figured I'd just start off by asking a little bit of your background before we get into the actual FKT attempts, multiple attempts from what I understand, and diving into that. But would really love to know a little bit more about you. I believe you're you're an ultra runner. Have you always been a runner?
Aurelien: Not really. Not really. When I started this FKT, the John Muir was just a soccer player in France originally where I moved to the US for work. And in the US I became more a hiker because I wanted to to see the area. I wanted to visit Arizona and Utah actually. So so I became more of a hiker. But yeah, when I was playing soccer with my friend, of course I was running, but I was not doing the actual running as we know and the actual ultra running. Not really. That was was really in my background. So I always liked sports, but then I this is when I moved to the US in 2016, where I started to enjoy really hiking mostly in the Grand Canyon, actually.
Tayson: Yeah, I would say that you've always been a runner then playing soccer. You know, I had to stop playing soccer. With with the ball, running with the ball. Yeah, yeah. I think I stopped playing soccer at like age seven or eight because I got too many side aches. You know what I mean?
Aurelien: Yeah, okay. Okay.
Tayson: I was not a I was not ever a runner as a kid, so and I mean I'm sure you were playing high level and and and uh big fields, right? I mean you're running a lot, so.
Aurelien: Not not that high, but yeah, I was running a lot within my team and I was running as fast as I could, so I was really running all over the field and that was my strength, let's say, but otherwise in terms of level, I was not that technique, so was not that great. I I was not able to make that of as my job, for sure.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah. Were you playing more as a striker or defender, midfielder?
Aurelien: Yeah, I was more striker on the on the ale, uh trying to get the.
Tayson: A sprinter, huh?
Aurelien: Exactly. I was I was. Now I'm uh slow. I'm not a sprinter anymore now. With ultra running, you know, you have to slow down, so it's a totally different thing.
Tayson: I know, it's it's kind of funny sometimes when you talk to people about like the speeds of ultra runners, right? You're like, yeah. I I I I was talking to someone uh about um no, someone else is telling me this story. They're talking about how fast Killian Jornet, you know, ran the Hardrock 100. And this guy on an airplane was like, "That's only like 4 miles an hour. I think I could do that, you know?" It's crazy. You have no idea what you're talking about. It's a different uh different thing,.
Aurelien: Yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um so you moved to the US, you're working here, and you just start exploring. Were you getting into backpacking or when did you learn about FKTs?
Aurelien: So I was not really into the backpacking. I was only doing day hike, let's say, in the Saturday and I'm doing I was doing something else on the on the Sunday. Um and the FKT was um after 2 or 3 years uh where I actually when I started to to do longer hikes uh I didn't have much vacation to take because I was spending some of my vacation to go back to France. So I was starting to to do bigger hikes within one day to see beautiful places that I could not see if I didn't spend three, four, five days backpacking. So I was doing that only within one or two days maximum. And then I started to build a lot of endurance by doing that without training much. And uh at some point I. Was like, "It would be interesting to see what would be your limits if you really give you a a big a big challenge and if you train for it." And I was I was curious. I was like, "Uh what could you do?" And um and at this time I was looking online at uh different things and I saw the the Barkley Marathon. I don't know if you know the the race.
Tayson: Yeah.
Aurelien: Yeah. Yeah. And uh and when I saw it it was I all I it's kind of I fell in love with it. It was really the the event and the race I wanted to do because this is really the race where you push your limits. You know you're going to fail, but you know how far you're going to go. And that's really what I wanted to do. And by seeing that then I was trying to chase who did it, how they entered it. And I saw Brett Maune, which is the record holder of the of the Barkley, who did before the Barkley the John Muir Trail. He was the record holder. He he was the the FKT holder of the John Muir. And I thought, "That would be amazing if you can get the the. John Muir Trail FKT. Maybe that will get you enter into the Barkley." So that's the first step. I wanted to get a big challenge and then I decided, "Okay, this is maybe the way I can enter this event and let's do it." And uh it was painful. I didn't succeed at the first time because I didn't do any real trail running at the time. But uh how I got into the FKT, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah. Wow. Did you ever Did you ever get to attempt the Barkley Marathon?
Aurelien: So, it's been 5 years. I'm trying to apply to get into the race. It's been not successful until in that since 2017. And it seems that that my luck is turning good right now for next year. So, uh.
Tayson: Really?
Aurelien: Yeah, it's some something Usually we don't communicate much, but maybe something is going to happen next year, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, that would be That'd be really interesting. Uh I might have to have bring you back on after you run that because that is a crazy race. If if If any of the listeners have not heard of the Barkley Marathon, you should definitely go look it up. It's it's I don't know how to describe it other than it's just a a bizarre um Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's basically a race, right? Where you're you're pushing your physical limits, but you also have to keep your your head and your whereabouts. You have to navigate Um you know, all sorts of different things there, which which I think is a lot harder to do than people realize, right? When you're when you're out on these big efforts, your mental and cognitive abilities really start to to. Diminish. And And some people have never set foot off of a established trail, too, right? So, um There's a There's definitely a lot of interesting and and very hard aspects of that race, which is It is It's an anomaly. It's a really really cool race.
Tayson: So, um I I find that really interesting that you talked about like what initially drove you was just trying to cover more miles so that you could see more in the in the limited window that you have. I really resonate with that personally. Um in fact, what got me into trail racing to begin with was this concept called fastpacking. Have you ever heard of fastpacking?
Aurelien: Yeah. Yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah. So, um yeah, same thing, you know, I have a business to run. I have a family. I have little kids. And so, it's like you you've got limited amounts of time. And And you start to do all of all of the hikes at least around me, you know, that are that are shorter and you start to look at at the ones that are more challenging, more big and if you can cover them faster, right? Then there's just it opens up more and more opportunities. So, I definitely resonated with resonate with that and it's honestly kind of the same way that I got into just trail trail running and then I mean, I guess I entered a race, but I was not racing by any means. Um So, anyway.
Aurelien: You race against the clock. You race against yourself in any case. You don't race against the other runners, but that's not the most important I think in ultra running and that's why every people are likes to do that because also there is a lot of companionship within that. We all fight together against ourselves, which is good and yeah, you you race against yourself and against the the race. So, that's good.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, it was it was fun. It was challenging and and a little bit addicting, too, right? There's definitely something there, I think. I don't know. I mean, maybe you could weigh in on this, too, but I wonder if you know, coming from like a sports background if there's something about the FKTs or or any of that that like kind of calls to us, right? Like in that competitive nature of of some way, but I think I think I like to compete and even if it's competing against myself, I find that that interesting.
Aurelien: What I like with the FKT beyond the fact the competitiveness, let's say, it's it's people showing how this is possible to do this since some time. When I saw when I saw the video from Andrew Glenn, which was the original FKT holder of the John Muir, he was so inspiring. When I watched the video 20, 30 times, I don't remember how many, but I was like, this is so inspiring. How is it possible to do this this trail within 3 days and 11 hours? It was for him. And I watched again and I was trying to understand how this is possible with all the hallucination behind and it was not something I was able to understand. And I wanted to leave that for myself and I want to I wanted to get this reference and. Say, "Okay, if he did it and if he trained for that, maybe I could do it also." It was some kind of inspiration and asking myself, "Okay, maybe now can you put the limit a little bit better for someone else as well." And this is how I see the FKT, more about inspiration instead of just saying, "Hey, okay, Andrew, see? I did 5 hours faster than you." It's not the point, I think.
Tayson: Yeah. It is super inspiring to see what people are capable of and I mean, it's I feel like the last, say, 5 years or so, it's been absolutely remarkable. People just keep pushing it so much harder and it's becoming a bigger and bigger thing, for sure. Yeah. When you went to do this for your first attempt, what year was that?
Aurelien: It was 2017. It was 1 year before I succeeded, yeah.
Tayson: Okay, okay. Um so, you had two attempts on it then?
Aurelien: I had three. Uh the second one was kind of curious because it was only 7 days before the the third one, yeah.
Tayson: Okay, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. So, you did you you said you did no training for the very first attempt?
Aurelien: Oh, no, no, no. I did a lot of training. Um oh, no, I spent all my summer doing long hikes, uh doing training runs. Uh but before that, I never had any race, I never run a marathon, I never run any ultra-marathon. I just did long hikes by myself, long repeats in the Grand Canyon, going up and down. And yeah, this was a big training. Um but something I discovered at the end that was not sufficient. Uh I was not ready. And uh yeah, lack of experience and you learn about it and you move forward and uh but yeah, no, I spent some training time, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you you made it a long ways into that first effort, right? I mean, you were I mean, how how many miles did you Did you even Did you complete it, just not just not set the record or did you come off trail?
Aurelien: Yeah, I went off trail. So the thing is I did a lot of mistakes. I was never able to I was never able to get the the FKT at this time because of lack of experience. The the food I brought with me I was not able to eat because I never tried. The headlamp without much battery because I didn't have any any battery left. The recovery that I was not handling properly before getting to sleep. I was not eating or drinking. So when I was moving from my nap I was I was dead. I was not recovered because you need to drink and eat before taking a nap so that the body can recover. So many mistakes that made that I was not able to finish within time. So I decided to quit after it. Was about 150 miles instead of 220. So I did some long way. I did about 60 hours on the trail. But far from my from my goal at least.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's really interesting and I think that that's also um just so true, right? That you have to prove out all these things and and really I think the most interesting part of when you push your limits is a lot of times you think that you have done the proper preparation. For me at least it seems like anytime I'm pushing my limits on either backpacking trip or um trail running it it uncovers the areas where you you know like until you push that hard you don't know that this can become a weakness per se, right?
Aurelien: Exactly. And I think that's the beauty of ultra running because this is exactly what you say. You just try to put your strength everywhere. You you you make your focus. You make your training. You train your nutrition, your sleep, and etc. But at some point you will face whatever you didn't have you didn't prepare. Whatever weakness you have you will see it and that will make you a better person eventually if you can identify the weakness and if you can train out of it. And that's the beauty of it and that's why I like ultra running because at the end, not even talking about sport, it can make you a better person, more humble, I would say also, because you know your weakness and you know for some of them how to address them or. Not. And really that show you that shows you that you're not the strongest people ever and that you have to face your weakness, otherwise you you don't succeed and that's something I like.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah. Had you done training to run through the night?
Aurelien: No, never. I had some difficulty when I did my John Muir about that, but the mental strength and the mental focus and the the will of doing it made that I was able to to go strong and to go without sleep in the night. So, I didn't feel really the need of training. My training mostly was mental visualization, visualizing visualizing that the night would be long, that it would be hard, but that my goal was to finish within time. So, that when I was having a hard time in the night, I was still moving. But I didn't train any any specific, you know.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's interesting. The John Muir, like the distance of the John Muir is one, I guess it kind of keeps moving, but like I would say that historically that was kind of like the biggest distance that people would go without really like sleeping, right? Like you you took naps, right?
Aurelien: Mhm. Yeah.
Tayson: Um like in the in the trail running world now, there's there's people that are starting to push these limits without necessarily even sleeping, right? Like two to three-day pushes with no sleep. I think the John Muir, as far as long trails, is probably one of the only ones in that FKT world right now that like it's long enough that you should sleep, but people are like, "No, you've got to push harder." And so, they're not sleeping on the trail, right?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah. And I remember when I did it, I was I was making the the time better than Andrew Andrew Spence at at the time. And Andrew slept about 10 hours on the train. So and I I slept only about 2 hours. So I did a big step about that and I did it on purpose because I was really feeling that I was not stronger than Andrew. I was Andrew was really impressive for me and a good inspiration for me. So I was like if you want to go faster than Andrew you have to sleep less. And this is how you can just go to the finish faster. But I was thinking my pace will be slower than him. So this is and I remember when I saw Andrew talking about beating the FKT he. Said wow only 2 hours of sleep. And I thought yeah this is getting tighter and tighter now. And I saw the the last people Joe McConaughy and um and I don't remember Matt I don't remember the name of the current FKT holder. They they didn't sleep much. Yeah.
Tayson: Yeah it's crazy. I mean I can't I can't imagine going that long without sleep. I I don't know that I've ever done that honestly in my life until you have like a big big goal like this. Um So yeah I mean like going back to just this very first attempt. So your biggest takeaways from this first attempt were that you needed to dial in your food a little bit better maybe dial in your gear your gear a little bit better.
Aurelien: Yes.
Tayson: Anything else that that stood out?
Aurelien: So on my gear for example I didn't take any mattress any tent anything. I just took how say for a security sleeping bag a thing where you get cold you know. And I was thinking.
Tayson: Yes. Yeah yeah okay.
Aurelien: I don't remember the name.
Tayson: Emergency They call it usually they call it like emergency blanket or.
Aurelien: Exactly exactly. I took this emergency blanket I was and I was thinking it would isolate me from the floor you know. And the floor was freezing at night. So, I was sleeping on that, but I was feeling cold. And then I was I got inside it. And then because it's you cannot breathe within it, my my sweat was making me even colder. So, I was not able to sleep because of that. So, I had to keep moving. So, I was not able to sleep. My headlamp was not best. Yeah, the equipment was not really right. And I think also my training was not right because I was the first time I was training for something like this. And I learned in the end that I didn't do enough.
Tayson: Yeah. Okay. So, what did you change in training for the next year?
Aurelien: I brought up the elevation gain per week. I did even more training runs longer than I did the year before. And then I I spent a lot a lot of time trying my nutrition, trying my food that I was able to eat. I took Cliff Bars the first year that I was not able to eat. I didn't take them the year after. I took almonds. I took sweets. I took bacon. I took a lot of foods that I really was able to eat. And bacon was actually the the most important one.
Tayson: Yeah, I think bacon would be great on trail.
Aurelien: That was nice. Bacon jerky it was especially. But it was very nice, yeah.
Tayson: So, so do you you talked about like increasing your mileage and your elevation. Were you were you just training overall more time or were you kind of making it more like like you're doing bigger long runs and just trying to get more elevation there?
Aurelien: So, my biggest training run, which was a funny one actually, was the Bright Angel and South Kaibab Trail in Grand Canyon. I don't know if you know about those. They're kind of classic.
Tayson: Yeah, we we ran rim to rim to rim in May. So, it was so we we went on both of those actually. We came down South Kaibab and then on the after we're coming back we went up Bright Angel.
Aurelien: Ah, very nice, very nice. So, I did that as a training rim to rim to rim uh sometimes. Uh but my biggest training was to do that three times Bright Angel South Kaibab to to to go down to the Colorado three times in a day and twice the day after. So, I was doing that five times in the weekend and it was funny because at some point I was seeing the same people five times because there were people going down, spending the night, and going up the day after. So, it was so funny. I was seeing the people five times while on their side for for some of them I think doing it by the weekend they were very proud of it. So, they could not understand why I was doing that five times. So,. It was funny to to see that and those were my my biggest training runs. It was about 150 km and I don't know the elevation. I think it was about 6,000 m yeah 20,000 ft something like that in the weekend.
Tayson: Yeah, I want to say it's about 4,000 ft out so 20,000 sounds right.
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah, that was something like that yeah in the weekend. So, and that was the end of my training let's say then I took 2 weeks of of rest let's say and that's what I did for my second attempt of the John Muir where I I failed again and that's actually my second attempt also which helps like a training for my third attempt which happened 1 week after.
Tayson: How so how long was your second attempt? I like was it a big effort or did you start and just stop really quickly?
Aurelien: It was a very big effort. It was you I was yeah 190 miles. I was about 30 miles from the finish and what happened actually is that I was I knew at least I believed is that I would get the FKT at this time. And by lack of experience I lost my lucidity and the third night of not sleeping I was starting to face hallucination. The trees and the rocks talking to me and things. And they made my they made me lose my mind. I was not eating and drinking anymore. I was not behaving as an ultra runner should behave when there is still 15 and 20 hours remaining. I was about 6 hours ahead of my pace, but I lost it within the last 15 hours because of overconfidence and loss of lucidity. But. My training was there. I was I was feeling strong at least. I was feeling that I was able to do it and and strangely after that I recovered very fast because I was eating and drinking properly. So that four or five days after I was feeling like okay, let's give it another go because I was just at that to get it. This thing is I was just overconfident and losing losing lucidity.
Aurelien: So next time I do it everything the same just that third night where you have to push and keep keep focus.
Tayson: Yesterday did you try to sleep more before it got to the third night or or like what did you change specifically for that third night?
Aurelien: So I did a very nice technique that I would say which worked actually. I I split it the nice the night into steps. I had about 8 hours in the night to go through. So I didn't sleep more before. I took a 1 hour nap before which was helpful at least already. But I broke it into small steps. Eight eight big steps which was hours. And 12 small steps. The 12 small steps were 5 minutes. So the 5 minutes I was checking my my clock and doing okay, one little step, two little steps etc. Until I had 12 and then I had one big step. And I was counting like that to make to make sure that I was making progress because I didn't lose lucidity by really counting the the steps the little steps,. And the big steps. Um so um.
Tayson: So that's that's really intense. That's like.
Aurelien: Yeah.
Tayson: I think that kind of it kind of begs a different question of like how let's let's say I was like a someone that maybe didn't see why people would do this or like maybe think that it's just crazy, right? Like it sounds like you're putting yourself just in such an extreme situation where you're losing your mind, you're you're in the wilderness still, right? You're you're at risk per se in in different ways at risk, right? Um so why why do it? Like why why keep pushing and and why put yourself back in that position three times?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah, it's I understand people why they are confused. Um and me this was the golden ticket, really. It was really a golden ticket for me to to get to the Barkley. Yeah, I did not have any choice but to do that and to complete that because I was so focused and so willing to do this race and I was so convinced that that would get me to the to the Barkley that he had to get it done. Not not about getting the John Muir FKT, which is in the end was not as meaningful. I was happy to to make to make this time and to give this reference to other people to to do it. I was really happy about that. But mostly to get my golden ticket, let's say. For the Barkley, there. Is only two golden tickets, one in the Barkley Front Classic and the other one at the Big Dog Backyard. It's two race events that Laz is holding. But otherwise, there is nothing else. So to me, it was really the the motivation and this is what kept me kept me doing that.
Tayson: Yeah. That's It's really like I can I can totally understand, I feel like the motivation, right? And you're just getting you get very fixated on the goal, the end result, and and it's almost like there's there's no there's no looking back essentially. Like you're just so committed that you don't question you don't even question it, right? Um but I I I imagine there's those people out there that are still just saying like like What's the point? What I guess I Yeah, like like so I guess let me ask this a slightly different then what what value do you get from pushing your limits this far? Like what do you take away? Like what what's what's on the other side besides like the Barkley marathon? Does has it changed you in any way? Does it give. You like like does it change your perception of yourself? Like what do you walk away from and just be like that this was totally worth it because this is on the other side?
Aurelien: Yeah, so you know, I spend a a lot of energy and time and money into that. It's time consuming. It's a mental consuming also. Because you have to you think about it, you train about it, and and you you fail once, you fail twice, and and people tell you, "But why are you doing that? I mean this is something out of your league. You cannot do it and this is just for ego and just have fun. Just do it for hiking and that's it." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you know, it's not because I failed and because I spent so much time doing that that maybe sometime I will not succeed at it, you know. I will just give it another try and see if I can do it or not. And at some point. You fail a lot of time like in ultra running, you know, every race is cannot be perfect. But at some point sometimes you succeed at it. Like the Barkley and finisher are saying, you know, the bigger the challenge the the greater the the reward. So once you finished and once you actually succeed, you feel like I did not do that for nothing. I actually believed in myself. I saw my weaknesses. I was able to address them.
Aurelien: So that gives you a lot of pride and confidence thinking you can give you a big you can give yourself big goals in the life for for your job and whatever and and just think outside of the limits and just make the best effort to reach your goal and I think that the point of of such project. At least when you try one two three times and actually and finally succeed I was feeling a lot of confidence let's say that even though I'm weak I can address that by spending more effort and energy.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely resonate with that. Um I think that that a life like to me goals are just such a massive part of life and every time you know you you hit that next goal whatever whatever your goals are you know it allows you to to see the world a little bit different and allows you to see yourself a little bit different and to to continue progressing right which I think is is a a major focus of of our life here is to to continue to progress in the different ways that we can so.
Aurelien: Exactly.
Tayson: Um Yeah, I think I think that's that's very well said that the way that that you said that there. Um going back to that night though that that's a really unique um approach to focusing your mind like that right? To to staying you know to counting your steps small steps big steps and staying clocked in like that that's that's very um unintuitive I would say for a lot of people. I mean do you where did you come on to that kind of like did you do do you do meditation or like where do you come on to cuz it seems like for you this the mental side of this is is about as as much as the physical side.
Aurelien: Yeah, so to be honest I I didn't plan that it was it came just the third night when I I was thinking I you should do that otherwise you will not succeed again. I knew that I had to go through the night to succeed. Once the the sun is up everything will be will be okay. I will stop the hallucination. I will I will be okay and I will be close to the finish. So I identified the time on the clock that I I need to to get. I didn't identify the summit. I didn't identify the valley or whatever. I identify really the time clock that I need to get. It was 5:00 a.m. If I remember. And from that, I just went backwards and asking me, "Okay, how much time do you have left. And how much closer to that time limit are you are you getting to?" It's almost like you're getting to the summit, you know? To me it was really the clock.
Aurelien: So when I was like that, I was like, "Okay, now you keep focusing and you get closer to your goal, which is 5:00 a.m., by counting the little and the big steps." So I just decided that at the moment and I was getting confidence that as the time progressed, I was getting closer to this to this goal. Because the year before, I was not looking at the time. I was looking at my my dots on the track. Uh and I was not seeing the progress. I was actually losing my mind because I was feeling like I was going the opposite way and not making. Any progress and it was confusing. And with the numbers, it was easy. I was really I knew really that the sun was coming up at 5:00, so it was straightforward.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine um you know, being out there in your position and and trying to to stay focused like that. I mean, you see times like you can get on YouTube or different areas and you can watch, you know, runners run through the night, but they're never alone. Whereas you did all of this totally unsupported and you you know, there's no one there to to lead you through the night or to to help you move forward or to make sure you're not getting off trail. And so um it might sound crazy, I think sitting in a comf- comfortable chair now, but like um in the moment, like that's that's a very real scenario to be in and to and to have to navigate, for sure.
Aurelien: Yeah, and uh and you know, the most difficult thing is not about uh having a night a full night like this. It was my third night. So, I had to face the first night like this. Then the second day, then a second night, then a third day, and then this third night. So, it was about 70 hours in where I was really really feeling sleepy and and I had hallucination again the third time where I had the the mountains talking to me again and and the trail which was the trail was a person. It was like a snake making it itself steeper and steeper just for me to fail. And I was angry about it. I was like, "Come on, man. Stop being so steep and help me." So, I was you know, I was. Having some some stuff moments where really the the trail and the mountain were personal personal It was It was like a person, you know? I don't know how to say.
Tayson: Yeah.
Aurelien: But because it was a third night. In the first night, it was better. It was a lot easier, I'd say. So, yeah, that change things when you're 10 20 hours or 70 hours into your thing, it's it's tough.
Tayson: Yeah. Did Did Did you ever have an experience with those hallucinations that were like frightening? Like they scared you or like made you not want to continue down the trail or something because you see something ahead of you or were they not not that kind of No? Okay.
Aurelien: No, I had some some trunks, some trees sometimes I was feeling that they were bears from far away, you know, in the night. But just just the shape, you know, and I was not afraid when I as I get closer I was oh, no, it's a tree, so it's okay. But no, no, so it's not much.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. And so, you have a YouTube channel where you've documented this. And I wa- I watched that film and I can't remember if it was in every attempt or a certain attempt, but it looked really cold and like the like you were kind of struggling with with the temperature. I didn't I believe you ran this Was it in August, right? August you ran was the the time frame or no?
Aurelien: It was always beginning of September within the two first week of September always. And it was cold there. It was about freezing at night. Yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, those those big granite basins, I've I don't know if I've ever been more cold myself than being in some of those big big granite basins with lots of water, right? And they just It's like It's like a refrigerator in there, I swear. It just gets And then there's wind. There's always wind and Was that a factor in every like did you get better at dealing with the cold as it went on? Like in different attempts?
Aurelien: Yeah, I got I got lucky the third time. I didn't know how to deal with it. The second time I did it I I had a a cough. I had a very painful painful Yeah, illness because of the cold at night. So, I was coughing a lot. And the third time by chance or maybe by preparation, I don't know. Yeah, I didn't have any problem. But, I think the cold actually helped me in the night to to keep moving because if it was really warm and nice and maybe I would have laid on the floor and just sleep, you know? But, that was not possible at this temperature. I I had no choice to to keep moving. So.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like I was also surprised. Makes sense now as I was kind of looking at it but when I when I very first opened that video, you you only had a small daypack essentially is what most people would call it. Like a running vest style pack, right? So, maybe 10 L of capacity or so. Um But, you don't have any kind of sleeping equipment like like So, when you go to take a nap, you're just laying right on the dirt, right?
Aurelien: Yeah, exactly. Yes. So, I had a 5 L capacity. It was a Salomon vest, you know? But, basically I didn't have anything inside. It just It was just the food, the water. I just have 1 L water. Um nothing else. I just had a pair of gloves and what else? I didn't even have another layers, other socks, other anything else. Oh yeah, I had a rain jacket. But that was it. So I didn't have much capacity and I was just going straight anyway from the start to the finish. So do I it was just about food and for food I had also some some belts around me to put the food in to the food inside. So yeah, I didn't need to carry much more.
Tayson: Yeah, that's that's so little. I mean, essentially when you do something like that you're committing to not stopping, right? Because you can't stop. You don't have insulation and and warmth, you know, provided if you stop. So you you essentially like you say like through those nights, you're committed. You can't stop or you would you would be freezing cold, right? So um Just to mention to nutrition. So what kind of nutrition what did nutrition look like for you on the trail? You kind of mentioned some of the food items, but like how many calories are you consuming in a day or did you track that?
Aurelien: Yeah, it was 5,000 calories per day. It was 15,000 calories I remember for the full trip. Um and actually I think I ate most of it. I think I ate about yeah, 13 to 14,000 calorie. Um it was about that and yeah, it was mostly about um as I said, almonds, bacon, some cereal cereal bars, but not much. Uh and then it was also some powder some powder to get into the into the water and just drink to get some it was a mix between maltodextrin and some protein also some whey protein I believe. Um so it was yeah, it was about drinking and eating all those various stuff, some chocolate bars as well. Uh yeah.
Tayson: Were you filtering your water or no?
Aurelien: No, no. I didn't have any issue with this. So it was good. I never got sick. Yeah.
Tayson: I I interviewed interviewed Josh Perry and he's he's set an FKT as well, or of them. And that that surprised me probably more than anything else that he I mean, at least on the John Muir Trail, you're you're in very most of the time you've got very good water sources, right?
Aurelien: Yes, yes, yes.
Tayson: Um but still um I think I think I've gotten so paranoid about about it that actually on my ultra marathon, there was a point when I was having some hydration issues where I had like some drink mixes with electrolytes and um I had over I'd essentially taken too many electrolytes on because I started cramping early on, so I had I'd gone too many electrolytes and then I was passing these these creeks of just crystal clear water high in the mountains and I wouldn't drink them with cuz I didn't have a filter. And in in retrospect, like looking backwards, I was like, that was so stupid. You know, it's just so stupid. Um anyways, I I find that interesting.
Aurelien: You you're really bad lucky if you get sick into the mountain that's easy. Depends on what you have to Yes, you have to flow and usually it's okay, but yeah.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, I I should have Yeah, I think I think you know, good going back to that point though of like sitting here in this chair, that's a very easy decision for me to say, oh, I like yeah, why didn't I drink the water? What was I thinking? But when you're in that exhausted state and maybe you haven't thought about that before, if your logic isn't the same, right?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah.
Tayson: Um So I'm I'm curious, as you look back at these efforts, to you, what's the harder part of the equation? The physical part or the mental part?
Aurelien: The the mental part for me. It's very hard to to focus your time into training and to preparing for that as in supporting because you really need to think about everything. You really need to to make sure that all your equipment that you have is going to be used and that you're not going to need anything else. So this is really the mental preparation of being yourself and then being being yourself at the preparation. And then being yourself out there once you're on the trail to keep pushing, let's say, even though you're in the nature and you should have fun, it's not really fun anymore in the in the end if you're exhausted and etc. So, despite everything, you have to keep your mental focus and that thing for me, this is the hardest part.
Tayson: Yeah. So, you make it through the third night, you finish the FKT, you set the record which from what I'm seeing, it still stands today, correct? At least for the direction on the trail.
Aurelien: Yeah, but the direction I took I think is actually easier than the other direction.
Tayson: Is it less elevation gain or more?
Aurelien: Yes, exactly. I did less elevation gain than the other direction. So, the FKT website, the way it is, you would think I had the FKT. Uh but you if you go on the next tab, you see that it's not the case. There is Joe and the the latest one also um I don't remember the name, unfortunately.
Tayson: Yeah, yeah, no, you've got Jeff Jeff Garmire and Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aurelien: Exactly.
Tayson: So, they're they're man, those their two times are 13 minutes apart and then you're just a little bit behind them, too. I mean, but as far as like going a certain direction, um you know, south to north, you you technically still have have it on the site, but um.
Aurelien: Exactly. Exactly.
Tayson: That's incredible though. I mean, that stood for for a long time, it looks like. Um.
Aurelien: Until this summer. Until this summer, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, both of them were this summer. Wow, within those those two were within a within a month of each other. Wow.
Aurelien: Yeah, Joe Joe Joe was surprised, I think.
Tayson: Right. Right. Um So, walk me through what it was like to finish. I mean, you finish that last day, you go, you you essentially, you know, get to the trailhead or cross the line at the end. Like what are what are you feeling at that point?
Aurelien: It was very sad to be honest I think you can see in the video if you saw it until the until the end. I was like now what? I'm by myself. Nobody and that's why I put also the sound on the video like people congratulating. It was just to make fun because it was like for me for me it was big achievement but there is nobody to to congratulate me or and that's not the point but that's really what you say is like I did it and now now what? I didn't change the world. I didn't make anything. I mean it's just just a thing, you know. And the now what was going to come several months after when I was applying to the Barkley again as I said and there was there was no. Now what because I didn't enter at the time. So I was like you learn about it and you succeeded at something you you get yourself into so it's good but it was not about you know, I get the FKT. I'm I'm strong. I'm the best. It was just that's that's it. It's it's done now now to the next project maybe.
Tayson: Yeah, it's it's pretty interesting scenario, right? Like like you've I'm you've run ultra races, right? And so like there like you go through the finish line, people are cheering, there's like all this and you just like get to this trailhead and people are just passing you have no idea what you just did, you know? They're just walking around in their own world of train of thoughts and you're like.
Aurelien: It was funny. People were I think some people were judging me. They were like I was really really dirty walking in a strange way and they were like what is he doing? It's and then.
Tayson: Well, liked your I liked your somersault, Your your roll and then you just sat on the ground. I think that's people are really looking at you then.
Aurelien: That was my signature for some friends back in France, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah, that's awesome. So, tell me I want to cover both the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. So, you can start with whichever one you want to, but just what like on the on the trip what was the highest of high and the lowest of low?
Aurelien: The lowest was when I woke up at 4:00 a.m. On my second attempt where I was not able to work anymore and when I was in the middle of the wilderness and I had still 10 hours to go back to the road to hitchhike, um, I was really feeling low because I knew I didn't get the record and I knew I needed to to do 10 hours just working very slowly just to hitchhike with nobody. That was a very hard time. Uh, and I think that was the lowest for me. Um, and the highest was really the the last 15 miles uh, where I saw my life my last year of work and energy and training and I knew it was going to happen and I knew I succeeded finally. So, I was feeling a. Drain of adrenaline and of emotion I never felt in my life. Achieving for me the impossible, and I was really feeling this adrenaline all the way to the finish for several hours and it was kind of the I was transcending myself and it was some emotion I never felt in my life.
Aurelien: So, I will always remember some emotion I always I also felt in some other races and it was amazing to to overcome, to feel a lot of pain when you're struggling and finally overcome those pains to finally succeed, let's say. So, it was all the emotion and this was the a feeling for me.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, both of those sound like some pretty highs and some pretty lows for sure. Um And and I mean this is just what a journey I guess to to go back three different attempts, get that far on each of those attempts cuz I think I think when I think like when I first was thinking attempts, I'm thinking like you started off day one, you weren't feeling it, so you just get off trail like day one, right?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah.
Tayson: But you were so I mean 60 and 80 hours in into these um efforts, they're they're uh it's it's really quite amazing. Um.
Aurelien: Yeah, I I I take those away and uh I I discover really close to the finish every time that it was not going to happen, but some some people had some some issues in the first day or two switching um having some ankle issue and and and such. I didn't have that, so I was lucky to to actually move for at least two to three days. And eventually yeah, eventually I failed, but at least I was happy to to to move, yeah.
Tayson: Yeah. Um Yeah, I I I mean did you Was it fun? Did you have fun on the trail or was it like was it just.
Aurelien: No, no, it was great.
Tayson: Did you like Did you like the trail?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah, so by night it was strange because by night you cannot see much. But the John Muir Trail is amazing. So there is some people telling me at the time, "Why are you doing that in three days? I mean you should take 20 days to do it and you should enjoy." And and I agree with them. This this this trail is really beautiful. Um but I didn't have 20 days. Um I didn't have enough vacation. I was working and I wanted to spend some time in France as well. So I was really feeling um privileged and lucky and and happy to to see the trail at daytime of of course. Yeah. Even if it was a short time because this is really a beautiful place. This is amazing. You're really into the wilderness and. You feeling by yourself over there. Um There is no roads anywhere. No mountain huts, only one at the middle. But it was amazing to see that. So, I had a lot of fun seeing the nature. And then about the the sport aspect, let's say the ultra aspect, I had a lot of fun discovering my limits. So, it was amazing and and some people doesn't understand because why doing the John Muir Trail in 3 days?
Aurelien: The answer I give them most of the time is is better than is better in 3 days than not at all because I was never going to do it otherwise. Well, I was never going to spend 20 days as some people do because I didn't feel the how to say the confidence or the that I would be brave enough. To really hike for so long. So, yeah. It was a It was It was a point. It was better than nothing for me.
Tayson: I really like I really like the way that you said that that it's better in 3 days than than not at all.
Aurelien: Yeah.
Tayson: I would agree. I think that's I think that's a great perspective on that. So, you're entering into the Barkley Marathon. Is there anything else that's kind of next for you? Like what have you been doing since since the completion? Have you been running ultras or do you just trail run on your own time or.
Aurelien: Yeah, I've been running ultras. Not as successful. I mean, yeah, I'm I'm not really into competition. I like to push my limits. One of the big things I did it was 2 years ago now was to cross the Pyrenees. It was kind of a John Muir Trail but for 12 days instead of three.
Tayson: 12 days?
Aurelien: Yeah, it was 550 miles across the Pyrenees, the south French mountains.
Tayson: Okay. Um And yeah. Well, I was I was going to have you tell us where that is but so south South France mountains um 12 days 500 miles, right?
Aurelien: Yes, a little bit more, yeah, but it was painful, yeah. So, I was sleeping for 30 days, of course, but I was sleeping only 3 hours a day. I was self-supported for this as well. It was kind of the John Muir.
Tayson: A hut-to-hut? Is this a hut-to-hut type hike? I know that in Europe, that's more of what what's available, right?
Aurelien: Kind of, but I was not really sleeping in hut. I was really sleeping on the floor again. I had a I had a mattress at this time. I had a mattress and a sleeping bag, so I could sleep. But it was not really comfortable again. It was just to be able to get some sleep and just get moving. So, and it was something It was something very similar to the John Muir Trail, but four four times longer. And with more sleep, with only 3 hours of sleep and with a mattress. But otherwise, the style was really really similar. Was the same was I was really light, not bringing much except my food and my mattress. And that was about it.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. So, is this a pretty popular trail in France?
Aurelien: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is many people doing that in the summer. Usually, they take about, yeah, 2 months. Yeah, about 2 months is the right time to do it because it's long. It's as I said, it's 550 miles, so Um but yeah, it's going like Are you going through cities or is it mainly in the mountains the entire way? It's mostly in the mountains, yeah. Mostly in the mountains, and people are as you said, they're sleeping in huts. And seeing other people, other hikers. It's almost like the Pacific Crest Trail, I would say, but shorter.
Tayson: Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting.
Aurelien: Crest Trail is is in the in the city sometimes. It's It's kind of a in between Pacific Crest Trail and John Muir Trail, something in between.
Tayson: Okay. So, you're living in France now? Or you You were born in France as well? Okay. Yeah, and but tell us Tell us a little bit about what it's like to, you know, be an outdoors enthusiast in France. Like, what is Um like, I'm just kind of curious. Like, I just I just really got back from Germany and Austria and obviously I was I was trying to learn as much as I could about the outdoors and and what people are doing in the outdoors there. Um but obviously in the United States we have massive amounts of of public land, right? Which is kind of allows us to to have different experiences than many other countries, right? So, what's it like in France uh as far as like, what's available and what do what do many. People do? And are there things that people should come to France to do?
