Rue: I am sleeping with my water and I just it's in a platypus and I'm just like I just have it with me because I'm like I'm just not letting anything get near this water this is my life right here like I'm right on my back I'm sleeping there with the water I fall asleep you know I'm fast asleep I hear something I wake up and hear something like that but in my head I'm like what in the heck yeah I'm like fumbling around for my headlamp and I get my headlamp and I turn it on and I shot and I look back and there's a fox back behind me it has my platypus.
Tayson: He'd gotten it from you.
Rue: Well I'm shocked because okay here's the next part just hang in there with me okay okay I have a I have like a hose with a nipple or like a bite valve on the end of it yeah it's it's drinking out of the bite valve no yeah yeah it's got the bite valve in.
Tayson: Its mouth you're 100 sure this happened right you're not alone I'm positive yeah hey everybody welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals where we're focused on getting you outdoors more comfortably and more confidently we bring on special guests like our guest today Rue mckendrick um to help Empower you and and just Aid you in getting out on the trail enjoying things and also just have very interesting conversations so let me introduce our interviewee today it was a fascinating fascinating conversation but let me give some background on Rue uh Rue is an American Backpacker and conservationist he's a triple crowner and the executive director of the American perimeter Trail conference an organization dedicated to creating a 1400 mile that's the estimate at least uh circumnavigational backpacking route of the continental United States.
Tayson: So this thing goes from Florida to California up to Washington and over to I think Connecticut is kind of the farthest it gets over there just a massive master of 14 000 miles so um a lot a lot of distance recently he completed a massive scouting trip of the proposed route and we're honored to have him on the program today to discuss this route I will just say this um before we dive into it it's absolutely fascinating to me to learn about this Trail you know why it's being built some details about this Trill but it's also just interesting to talk with Rue we had some really interesting conversations uh between you know hiking through the desert uh foxes stealing water which is one of the most bizarre stories I've ever heard um but also.
Tayson: Just talking about his journey and uh I think it'll find it really powerful I think he's very in inspirational to you guys getting out on trail so with that we'll go ahead and cue this up and roll the interview with Rue mckendrick hey Roo I am super excited to have you on the podcast here and I just gotta ask I'm sitting here looking at this video view on our Zoom call here and you are in a pretty unique spot it appears and it sounds like it's a first of its kind so maybe just talk me through where you're sitting right now.
Rue: Yeah so right now uh I live in Bend Oregon but I'm actually in the lower uh you know Southern Michigan and this is actually the first ever American perimeter Trail shelter uh it's called bin walking because it's actually a recovered uh storage bin for corn or for grain it's like a grain and corn bin that I'm in right now so it's round um you can see there's like a fireplace behind me we've got some North Country guard there's bunks over here there's a sink back behind me and uh you know you can see it's round there's a fan and a light up there and there's a little desk that I'm sitting at there's a library um yeah there's a size.
Tayson: I gotta ask because I don't know if all of our listeners have experienced things like this and I actually haven't in fact when I was out hiking on the at this summer it was really my first experience with shelters because out here in the west like they're just not really a thing and this was a the next level of shelter if I like looking at it from my perspective so like how many people do you expect to stay in there is this like a common shelter or are they more like those at just a roof and a you know one side open.
Rue: Yeah so I mean here specifically we had a Backpacker stay here this weekend and there's a foot of snow on the ground so some of the idea there's an outdoor shower um you know there's an outhouse here too and some of the idea with this one is that uh though it was on the American perimeter Trail the North Country Trail just got moved this past week so that the shelter is on the North Country Trail so the North Country Trail actually moved on to the American perimeter Trail uh instead of Vice Versa and um and so the idea here is that because the North Country Trail is so long some of the hikers are having to hide some of this they're flipping and they're coming through in the winter you know there's there's one just.
Rue: South of here trying to finish and there's one North if you're finishing like I said there's a foot of snow on the ground so the idea is like when there's snow and you're on the North country and you're trying to wrap up a hike because it seems like people are starting to to figure out like a flipping sequence to that that this is a place where you could come and get warm and dried out for the night after you know what could have been a week or two weeks or several weeks of snow and freezing cold temperatures and uh and so as we go forward there's uh there's other people here that actually want to build one on the American perimeter Trail in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and so it's going to be a. Case-by-case basis but the American perimeter Trail is like that it really is informed by its locality and by its by its regions you know there is not an over branching standard it's really the locals informing what happens in that area.
Tayson: Yeah yeah well I want to talk more about these shelters and whatnot but I also feel like I might need to just want to back up here for just a second and talk a little bit more about um this amazing trail that you're designing right now right the American perimeter Trail first off when I read this right it said that it was an estimated 14 000 miles is that correct.
Rue: Yeah I I mean my guess is it's probably going to be longer than that uh you know and I spoke you know speaking with the North Country Trail this past week they said you're never going to know how long it is because they don't even even though the North Country Trails mapped out they don't know the exact mileage of it so I'm guessing probably a little bit over 14 when it's all said and done uh the the intention is not to make it longer and longer the longest ever that's really not the concept behind it it's really because you've already like got that that's already a given right.
Tayson: Yeah that's already a given you know.
Rue: That's right that's kind of a given it's kind of a given so you know uh but the idea was kind of to connect communities all around the United States and uh the United States is a huge country so hence it is if I mean if it was a smaller country would have a smaller Trail but uh but here we are I think.
Tayson: There's some absolute power in having a trail system like this and again from my perspective I've kind of been an outsider you know staying in Utah Colorado Wyoming hiking these areas and really doing you know and anywhere from three to seven day trips for the most part that's kind of where I spend so much of my time but you know this year going out and spending some time on the at going to Trail Days um you know it was it was really eye-opening to me to just see that and see how much that helps other people get out too because I think personally I can be a bit of a recluse whereas other people are very social hikers and it's it's very empowering to have a system and to have people and to have you.
Tayson: Know just more content and stuff around it and what's what's interesting I guess as I look at this American perimeter Trail is what it might become and so to me as you look at this piece and you talk a little bit about connecting it do you see people using this as like they go hike the whole perimeter Trail or do you see them kind of focusing more on sections and just having more um I don't know like like Universal Trail system that's talked about this documented that's that's ease of use is there touching into more States for them to jump on because here in Utah we don't have you know a Utah trail per se that you know we don't have like a through truck like that so it's not like people and you talk. And go hop on that trail without any thought without any floor planning and just start hiking it makes it a little bit more challenging in some ways right.
Rue: Um gosh it's it's hard for me to say what's in people's minds and in their hearts I I received a message today from someone asking for the GPX files of the trail and so just to address that um I'm in development with a geographer and a cartographer right now uh in developing that for so you should be seeing it showing up on all your favorite hiking apps in 2023. Um but I want to say the American perimeter trial conference is a 501c3 nonprofit and our mission and vision does not talk about distance backpacking or through hiking of the American perimeter Trail and there can be some kind of confusion around that because folks look at me and and think like that's what I was trying to create here but it's actually really couldn't be further.
Rue: From the truth because if people out there want to through hike this uh my my visor is off to them and I commend them for their efforts uh however we're more about connecting communities much like the North Country Trail does um and like I said it's very much regionally informed so some areas will definitely be back country other areas are going to be more like I said like North Country in some certain areas connecting small villages to each other I want this to be the trail of the local people where they go to picnic or they just stop by the road and get a picture with their family by the sign or they spend a weekend or they spend a day again if people want to distance hike you know I give them all the.
Rue: Credit in the world but that's not why I'm creating this it is a conservation Corridor and we are not a recreation or um Trail organization just like the uh Appalachian Trail Conservancy isn't uh they are a Conservancy that is a conservation organization and the way that they do that is by creating recreational opportunities for human beings so that they can have buy-in and so that they can protect these places that they care deeply about because they've had memories and they've recreated there so you know we're registered as a conservation organization and so what that means is my main purpose is to create a conservation Court of corridor for flora fauna and for people connect these communities in between and then we're putting a trail in it for recreation so that we have that kind of. Buy-in and also like you know it's it adds value it allows value to people's lives it adds value to to that land so um so like I said enjoy it in the distance if you like but I that's not that's not my intentions that that'll have to be a personal Journey for you on your own.
Tayson: Yeah well I want to talk about that but really quick I want to give a high level of what the trail looks like so maybe just talk about like the four corners of the trail and what that looks like uh you know what states does it hit so people can Envision just the size of this Trail great and so this gives me.
Rue: Like an opportunity to clear up uh like what I hiked during the actual last three years and what I had hiked before or what I've hiked since and um I when I hiked I did a pandemic hike so that simply means because I was supported by individual contributions and also by sponsors that I wasn't able to just like make decisions in a vacuum so like for instance I never stepped on the Appalachian Trail it looks like I did maybe if you're looking at the map but I didn't and if I had that would have been the end of my trip because I would have been the end of the funding and that it would have just that would have been the end so um so what it looked like is I started in Bend Oregon.
Rue: In 2019 I went South down towards Mexico I ended up coming and cutting back up north to Death Valley the trail is not going to go through Death Valley I did um this was this hike informed like my my decisions going forward and so what I learned there was it it can't go through Death Valley it's it's extreme it's extremely dangerous it's just too dangerous and like I'm not people have called me and asked me for how did you what is the route through Death Valley how did you get through there and I'm like I can't share it like if you want to do it but like you know I'm not gonna have that on my conscious I barely made it so um so anyways it's going to uh I have a route that goes. Across Southern California and Southern Arizona but I think I probably will cut back up to there to the um Grand Canyon and use the Arizona Trail then it basically follows the Border across the country it goes down into Florida it comes up the Eastern oh.
Tayson: It goes to Florida now it does go to Florida yeah oh wow so.
Rue: Um so we'll be going into Florida and um I chose a uh Western Appalachian route none of this is set in stone I will release something I have changed things I've only even done a couple weeks since I finished all this and I've already changed I've already moved the map since I've been home so um so weekly this thing is going to be changing just like every Trail in its Genesis does that and just like the North Country Trail moved last weekend you know this is what long Trails do and you get the moth of roads and you can in better suit areas so Florida I came up the western side the Appalachians not on the Appalachian Trail we may do some Eastern skirting I'm looking into it we have developed a Connecticut Trail I'm.
Rue: Really happy about this it doesn't include the Appalachian Trail and we have Partners strong Partners in Connecticut to get that on the ground the route is already there um and uh it will go up into New England will go up to the Canadian border and then essentially coming back down and through Vermont and then following the North Country Trail up into the Upper Peninsula of Michigan uh heading west across um North Dakota I took the northern side of the Missouri River Lewis and Clark like Lewis and Clark route basically um I'm partnering with a group called Montana 406 or mt406 and their route is on the southern part of the Missouri so we're working on that right now over to the Pacific northwest trail to the Pacific Crest Trail is where I tied in and.
Rue: Started coming south ultimately we are using some of the Pacific Crest Trail not all of it ultimately because we are a conservation organization we will be moving off of the Pacific Crest Trail and we have like a green and like for instance with a continental divide Trail Alliance we have an agreement with them that because we crossed that twice once in Montana and once in New Mexico we have an agreement to share their footbed but we don't share their designation so when we share their footbed we don't become a national Scenic Trail designation but we do share that and so ultimately the trail is going to come off of the Pacific Crest Trail because our goal is not to make Trails busier that are already busy or are we preserved for conserved things that are. Into the public sector or have a governing body over it our idea is to do something new here and to bring into more Recreation something that's going to be there for Generations.
Tayson: Yeah I think this leads perfectly into a question that I had for you as I was doing a little bit of digging um just on you and some things that you say you you said in the past like conservation through Recreation I think I've got a grasp on that personally but I bet a lot of people don't right because like because you identify as a professional Backpacker and a conservationist and yes when people are like well how is a conservationist doing any good if he's getting more people into nature right so I want you to walk people through that so they can understand what that means that's a.
Rue: Wonderful question and let me start off by delineating Between the difference between environmentalism and conservationism so and we'll just do it like from the we'll do it from like the person perspective like a conservationist or an environmentalist so an environmentalist is going to be more of a purist perspective so this would be something maybe you would find like the concept of wilderness that you find in with the forest service uh where it's a roadless Wilderness and even maybe you know to the extent of trellis uh zero access no access um so an environmentalist is going to say leave everything alone don't touch it conservationist believes that you use or conserve natural resources but you do it in a sustainable and responsible way and so we're not environmentalists in the sense that we're saying um do.
Rue: Not touch this do not give access do not build trails where conservationists in the sense that we see the value the human value in it as well and feel like Recreation is something that is a low footprint I'll use the word footprint it's like a low profile on this land and also like I said adds value to people's lives so that is that is the different perspective and that's what divides conservation is from an environmentalist so and I've been both so there's yeah oh.
Tayson: That's interesting why would you switch.
Rue: Um just uh you know life experience capacities what is uh what is the reality in which in which we live um right what are those realities how do we work within the construct now I love to bust out of that um you know obviously like I'm not a conformist so when I went to go hike the American perimeter Trail I mean everyone was around around me was saying like this is a horrible idea it's a bad idea we don't think you should do this you're not going to come back off and obviously like I'm not a person that goes by the status quo like I'm gonna make my own way um but with that being said um I have a real desire for the backpacking and a real heart for that so I want to.
Rue: Be a part of that and I want to be part of the trail community and I also want to be part of the conservation community and I think these two things are and perfect alignment and and they are very complementary and so I was just lucky enough that I happened to have these two um things that we're not opposing in my life because there are things in my life that are opposing and contrary these were two things that seemed to align very nicely together.
Tayson: Yeah I I think I resonated with that a lot too just I grew up with like a sporting a Sportsman's background right um here in Utah and so like it gets talked about a lot like like the wildlife levels right and you know how many how many tags or different things should should be put out there and the fact of the matter is that people have to wrap their head around is by humans existing we consume and we have a negative impact on the environment right so the idea of like environmentalism to me um it's tough because by us existing period we're negatively impacting the environment and so obviously like reducing our impact on the environment is massive but you know by by organizing and looking at it through a conservationist lens I think that.
Tayson: We get so much farther and we're managing the situation that we can't undo like we exist right like right like we didn't really get a choice in that to begin with right so we're here now and and like how do we manage that um because just fact the matter is we are like we're wrecking the environment every day as a species and we can try to reduce that but at the same time we also live in in a place where voting is everything right and so by getting more people outside we also help people vote in a way that will will preserve the environment and it will you know make us think twice about what we're voting for to help that right so yeah people think they vote with their.
Rue: Minds but you'll be surprised how many of us vote with our hearts you vote with your dollars that's what I say you vote with your dollars and and we go with and we vote with our dollars and I really appreciate you bringing up the aspect of sportsmanship there because you know this model is not something that I came up with what happens when you want to preserve uh fishery who are the people who end up doing that you know I've served on boards that have protected watersheds but that's usually the fishermen and like who are going to protect the game and manage that and the wild areas in which they can go hunting that's Hunters so our Corridor just happens is going to be used by all of that there's going to be hunters and. Fishermen and Sportsmen and there's going to be Backpackers because that too um.
Tayson: Are you creating new Trail then or like I like your idea of like keeping like you not sharing Footprints I think that's very wise in a lot of ways but are you gonna have to create Trail or are you able to to use a lot of existing Trail.
Rue: So I mean initially we're going to use as much existing Trails possible I I was of different Minds about this previously uh and in the past year I've really come to um a point where you know I can either like really work on this for decades and like not give it over to the public which are the people who are going to build it not me right you know I mean Texans are going to build the Texas trail I'm not going to build the Texas trail localities like local people are going to build their Trail so they have buy into this they they want I mean that's what they're coming to me saying like organize us like we want to do this so um so there will be a lot of uh existing trail with. The idea of just moving that off as time goes on but uh like for instance I I like what you said about Utah and talking about like you're you know not having like necessarily like a state Trail there.
Tayson: Mm-hmm.
Rue: Uh like you would have maybe longed um and so we're a membership organization so many of our members are from Texas and I think the reason well I know the reason is is because they don't have a Texas trail but they want one so we're going to have to build that 1.2 percent of taxes is is public the rest of that thing is all private which made it an extreme Challenge to backpack through as you could imagine 90 is 99 is private or 98 that's right.
Tayson: That's right.
Rue: So um so we have a plan we have a plan I know well we have a plan to we have a you know you have like Arizona 80 New Mexico 60 and then right beside you have Texas one percent so um and that's a lot to do with their history if you look back on their history and it makes absolute sense why it is like that in Texas it makes it makes perfect sense and uh but with that being said we have many Texans that are chomping at the bit because you know if they want to go hunting they have to get permission from a private land owner if they want to have access to like streams they have to get like permission to cross over people's land and so they're chomping at the bit. To get a trail on the ground and I have a plan to do that.
Tayson: Um that's awesome and it's not going to help out a lot of people if you could pull it off right I mean that's they're.
Rue: Going to help themselves like I said like the Texans are going to build it but I'm going to be there to support them and give them the tools to do it also like this is what I you know I've spent a lot of time and research and I've had other people look into this and help me with this it's not just me yeah um and this is the information that's coming back and this looks like our best shot to get a trail across Texas so absolutely Louisiana lots of Trail uh Mississippi lots of Trail Alabama a good bit of Trail um West and East on the southern part of Alabama over to the pinhoti trail so lots of Trail in there Montana uh 1200 miles of Trail across Montana so yes a lot of new. Trail and uh this is my life's work so I mean if I'm around here for a couple decades and I have a couple decades to work on it but like I'm not trying to get this done tomorrow even though I feel like it sometimes.
Tayson: So when you're not on trail when you like when you're out there doing this right because so so maybe explain really quick you've gone out to Scout and hike this right I mean and you've done that for the last three years is that kind of what it took you to get around it um so when you're not on quote unquote Trail are you on a road or are you bushwhacking like are you going across.
Rue: Country great question so like New Mexico was a lot of cross-country so not necessarily bushwhacking but cross-country I'm just like using those two different terms like bushwhacking actually going through bush you know cross-country no Trail but map and compass and line of sight so okay um so like New Mexico is a lot of um cross country Texas was as well um I got permission from ranches I can't I can't give that permission to someone else that was a one-time deal for me to Cross some of those ranches and some of those ranches are big enough that you can make it 100 miles but that's cross country so there's no trees that's cross-country map and Compass you know falling in the general direction of where you want to go um Appalachian a lot of bushwhacking um.
Rue: Pacific Northwest um some Bush whacking um and uh and then other areas roads just like I'm just pinned in you know it's like private land here private land here I don't have a permission here I'm pinned in so then what am I doing I'm like looking for the next best alternative which is so there's pavement so then I'm looking like well is there a two track somewhere and I'm doing I'm doing that by like using a variety of maps and then also just local information and sometimes the local information is just perfect like something I would have never found out unless I asked someone and then other times it's like so wrong just like oh no yeah and I realized like oh they've never actually been up here they just heard that there might be.
Rue: Something like up here and that's the way it works so yeah um and you know I tried to figure out I have a better idea when we get done with all the digitizing of the map I think I came up with something like 15 or something being like dirt and gr and uh gravel and paved roads I think it's kind of what I came up with and you know I'm okay with that I mean it's so everyone's got yeah.
Tayson: Right right and like you said um like I just had um the Arizona Trail president on here and he was you know talking about how they've made shifts you know if they can get you off the dirt road then they'll get you off the dirt road but that takes time and money and resources right so that's it um but I do want to ask maybe a hard question is how how like how do you publish this when there's not established Trail in some of this or do you not do you not publish uh publish those sections of Trail until you have a designated Trail right because that because to me I'm thinking you know you know you're gonna have 100 people just go try it next year just out of the blue you know what. I mean you're gonna have some number of people that just as soon as this is public information they'll go right I hope so yeah yeah so like um.
Rue: Yeah so I'm working on that with the developer and then also with the app companies and so that's a con that's a conversation that we always have because I have major concerns I have major safety concerns and I you know I'm gonna go a little dark here for a minute but um I've spent enough time in the Southwest being right on the brink because of water you know I did it this spring Scouting Around in Southern California over into Arizona um I've done it enough times I don't really want to do it anymore and I certainly don't want to encourage someone to go into an area I mean there's this mindset someone did it so then it can be done and like sometimes someone just got lucky you know got it like I just got.
Rue: Lucky got away with it so we're talking about that in development like how do I manage that with um with water and so my understanding to this point in time is like there is just going to be a lot of caveats and kind of asterisks and notes along with the digitizing of this that explain the situation and then people will have to make their decision as far as the roads this is near and dear to my heart because I I have a license but I don't drive um it's not that I won't drive I just haven't driven in 12 years I mean I've driven like once or twice I bike commute and I walk commute and Bend Oregon and I do that all through the winter too I enjoy that you know I ski commute.
Rue: Sometimes I really enjoy that um and so I've always been like you know I've been walking around and biking around for the last decade and my older brother oh it was the same way and why I was on trail I was in North Dakota he was walking like he normally does is his favorite thing to do and he was struck by a vehicle and he was killed so this is something that's like very personal to me that um you know I'm not exactly sure how to address all this I'm like learning more about it every day but I do want you to know like I have the best intentions here because I it's like the absolute last thing you know I'm trying to like build something here to add something to someone's life not take.
Rue: It away so so I think like the there are a lot of challenges there the other Trail organizations that have digitized their Maps uh this would be like maybe southern part of uh like parts of Ohio on the North Country Trail or like the Buckeye Trail in Ohio which they're on far out I mean North Country Trails and the Buckeye is on far out um you know they have areas where they've painted blazes on the telephone poles and like the paved Road and then you know I found like in Ohio some of those are kind of pretty dangerous roads like no shoulder not a real good Escape kind of winding and twisting around places so you know if nothing else someone listens to this and maybe like thinks a little bit when they're just out.
Rue: There on the road like heed the warning because it's a you know it's a serious thing that happens it happens every single year hikers and Backpackers get hit on roads so so there's a technical challenge there and um Tayson we're going to be seeing this in real time you know like we're going to get to see this this year these technical challenges and what kind of creative um creative uh um like solutions that we come up in order to address so we can inform people so they know what they're getting into.
Tayson: Well yeah and I I just want to say too I'm sorry to hear about your your brother and um that's that's incredibly tough situation to deal with right but I I really value what you're saying with with some of these other things I want to explain why because it's easy for for let's just let's just say it's me for a minute let's say I just wanted to be a bully and be like well you can't just send people out from point A to point B without a trail think of all the environment they're gonna walk over or this that and the other right but in reality it's going to be very few people and and hope and every year it's going to get better to the point where it's very established it is a trail.
Tayson: It's organized it's it's you know what I mean you're not you're not having a negative effect but what I've seen in my life is it's people that take action that actually create something right so if you just like you mentioned if you sit back and plan this for 10 years and then try to launch it it may never come to fruition versus getting it out the door and moving it you're like I can guarantee by publicizing this and making it a thing you will get the traction needed to take the next step and to get the funding to the next step and to get the these other aspects going and you know I think that's maybe dear to me too because starting the company that I started I didn't start like having done like worked.
Tayson: At another company having started another company having relationships in this industry any of that and so we started very lean very controlled and and I look back at our product in the beginning and I'm kind of embarrassed now right like it really is like just just to say it blanketly but without building that product and and you know the people we sold those product to they got a scream and deal they probably got a they got a tremendous value but it's not the product we sell today right so so as I look back it's like if I had done nothing nothing would exist now we could do no good of it we couldn't you know donate to Charities we couldn't we couldn't create the product we created we couldn't give the jobs we create but.
Tayson: By doing something even though looking back now and 20 you know hindsight's always 20 20 you're like oh man what were we thinking what were we doing to me personally I I'm just a firm believer in starting getting that thing in motion constantly learning constantly you know innovating but but that motion is everything and so I if people do you know criticize you at some point of of anything I my thought would be you're doing it right they're doing nothing well you're creating something they can have a massive impact so um yeah I think as you're doing this you are gonna you're gonna be constant pivoting but you know you're gonna look back in 10 years and be like look at how perfect this Trail is what were we doing in the beginning but I'm. Sure glad I started right you know I think you can.
Rue: Probably relate to this I mean this has been the greatest education of my life it continues to be on the daily it continues to be and I commend you for taking great risk because you know starting lean starting slim which I did um and not having any guarantees you know but just having an idea or a dream and to follow that with absolutely no no assurances but going forth anyways and saying we don't know everything but we will and um and we're not going to have all the resources but but we will and um we don't have all the answers but we're working on it you know this is a process because people have asked me like well what if there's just a road walk in this area and and I say well yes that's. Why I created the conference like that's why I created the conference that's why I didn't just like hike this and be like okay someone else go do it you know how about it so hence hence the conference but uh I relate to that on so many levels like you know this process of of being a startup and and uh The Growing Pains really yeah yeah you can't.
Tayson: You can't truly learn without experience in my opinion right like you can go to school you can study but I can tell you're able to apply it it's just something totally different and so yeah I mean running a company you know starting the organization you've started you you're you're going to learn at a different level and you're gonna make mistakes but at the end your heart's in the right place and you're gonna build something amazing right and I couldn't.
Rue: Find that I couldn't find the American perimeter Trail 101 in the Class catalog anyway I looked for it right right I looked for it I couldn't find it right.
Tayson: Well I mean has anyone done anything like this has any I mean I I feel like is it Andrew through skirka that's like done some kind of a root or I mean there's a few crazies out there that have done this right you know I mean uh.
Rue: Well I have a friend um he walked around uh he walked roads um around the perimeter back in the 70s with his wife um so we just had a membership meeting he was on he's in Massachusetts so he's a member and a supporter of the American perimeter Trail you know my friend Nimble well nomad um he has you know I call him often to talk about this to talk about like this process of going through this because he's hiked around the United States and he has a lot of information there um but like I guess what's different is you know I'm not I don't want to like separate myself out and be different because I really want to be part of the backpacking community and I am a triple crowner and and like I'm not.
Rue: Going to give the resume but there's a lot of trails that I backpacked ever before this so I didn't I didn't go into it blind now it didn't mean that I mean I was surprised at how much I didn't know like I thought I knew a lot because I've been backpacking for 20 years you know without cell phones even because they didn't exist yet but man the APT really whoa that was Next Level so I mean I don't want to like separate myself out from people but like people go out there and they're doing fkts and they're um you know they're you're pushing limits and um finding new routes and stuff but I guess like where I want to just like I don't want to separate because like I said I want to be a.
Rue: Part of but what the work that we are doing not just me because this is like a wee thing um is the conservation piece so and I always knew that they were they've always been the same to me you know and and so I knew when I started this that I was going to start the organization but I needed some money and I needed um a community and I didn't have any of that when I left Bend Oregon I had 400 in my pocket you know I had gear that added up to over 125 years old it was all duct taped together and I mean and I'm not saying like duct tape together I'm not saying duct tape together like um figuratively like I'm not saying like oh I had it all taped together and. I'm like being we just had our membership meeting I showed them my gear it's covered in duct tape the backpack the whole strap is completely apart the padding and everything is sewn and duct taped back together is this is this.
Tayson: Still the case today oh yeah all right all right we gotta I mean we gotta help you out of it well I.
Rue: Mean I'm gonna talk I mean I have gear sponsors and like okay so like I don't it's not that I didn't get help on the trail because I would have never been able to afford all the gear that I used because I didn't just Gear Up um I geared up I don't 10 times Maybe I have no idea maybe eight backpacks eight shelters tents tarps um tarp tents uh hammocks 20 some pairs of shoes um I don't know how many sleeping bags and quilts like you know it wasn't like it wasn't like for instance like another through bike where I might be able to gear up in the beginning and then I can just have that for 2 000 Miles because most of the stuff's going to last two to three thousand miles like that's.
Rue: Kind of what I've found out with a lot of it with continual use you know continue like daily use and not being cleaned up and just being like sham shoved into a backpack and stuff so um so you consider like the length of the time that I was backpacking and so I was gearing up constantly and the gear companies did provide that for me they didn't provide any conservation dollars um for the organization and they didn't provide any money for me personally to eat or anything like that but they did they did keep me going and yeah the backpack I came in with was um all sewn together and uh uh and uh had a like a big huge safety pin through the one strap the one shoulder strap because it had completely ripped out. And I couldn't get the needle okay let's Jam that in there and then sewed it and then taped around it so yeah it continues so people that are.
Tayson: Listening to this they know that like our product designer we talk about all the time he's very meticulous like the way he cleans things the way he packs his bag you know a lot of times he'll like leave like we'll all take our gear off and sit down and he'll just stand there with this backpack because he doesn't want to get it like set it in the dirt or something right yeah but I'm trying to decide as I listen to you whether you're really hard on gear or if that's just gonna happen with 3 000 miles a few years.
Rue: You know you know it's just been a different reiterate I mean it's been all these different reiterations for me I you know I first threw out to the Pacific Crest Trail 17 years ago and that was all homemade gear so those homemade backpack homemade and same with the Appalachian Trail years before that you know homemade quilts and sleeping bags and homemade down jackets and you know just I spent a lot of time at a sewing machine so I got to learn about gear through that process you know but uh I mean I have to be honest with you like on the American perimeter Trail I was grateful for what I got yeah so I was so motivated by my mission and it wasn't a mission to finish it was the mission of just setting out.
Rue: To do what I said I was going to do and to get this conference in this organization off the ground that um and I'll tell you something else too I had my gear stolen in Kalkaska Michigan um and the gear companies um did really come through for me at the time and also also people in Michigan did at that time so you know there were times where I would have maybe had things differently um when I really needed it it was there and I don't hold any contracts now I mean everything's expired because I I let everything I let her everything expired on purpose so.
Tayson: You know gotcha gotcha yeah well if we ever need to talk off air about things about gear and and gearing up and stuff let me know I mean I don't think you need to be out there with duct tape gear and what what you're trying to build some of this but but let me let me ask this I mean when did you start backpacking.
Rue: Yeah so I would have started backpacking uh it was over 20 years ago um you know the first distance backpacking was 20 years ago uh I'm not that old but um but I started kind of young but I didn't start young I should take that back I started as an adult I started backpacking like the European backpacking and traveling around Europe during the Summers uh as a teenager I was very lucky that I had a job because my um we had like my family had a business and I was able to work there and make a little bit of money and save up for a plane ticket and leave for the summer and my parents allowed me to do that when I was a teenager so I'm grateful for that and I had a I. Had friends in Europe that I could stay with and I traveled around um and so I had been doing a bunch of traveling and at some point in time maybe I was 17 or 18.
Rue: And I realized that I had been to these other countries and traveled around and backpacked but I had not seen my own country and that kind of encouraged me to go on this journey of discovering America for myself and seeing what it was about and the way I chose to do that was on foot and I grew up off the Appalachian Trail so it was kind of like a natural thing for me but I didn't grow up with my family like hiking backpacking and camping but I'm just I'm just a Nature Boy like I'm just a Nature Boy it's. Just like I can't it's just the way it is I'm practically a pharaoh animal at this point.
Tayson: You shut yourself.
Rue: Yeah I don't look it but I'm I'm feral I mean there's nothing normal about being 16 17 years old and starting to travel the world I mean that's no there's not right yeah but I mean it taught me a lot of responsibility because it was on my dollar you know so that was one thing was on my dollar taught me how to negotiate trains planes and Automobiles and buses and.
Tayson: Um where did this drive come from like how did this even get in your head like I I think as a 16 17 year old it wouldn't have even been on my radar right like.
Rue: Oh I was lucky through some life experiences that had nothing to do with me you know when I was like 12 or 13 my church had a um like a foreign exchange with another church over in Europe and that got the ball rolling and that didn't have anything to do with me I was just in the right place at the right time and so that got the ball rolling of.
Tayson: Making connection for you and then yeah.
Rue: And so then I would return to Europe somewhere where I had friends and I would stay with them for a while and then I would go to other friends and then like you know I can relate to that.
Tayson: I uh I served a mission for for my church and uh I opened up like this letter they sent you of like where they're gonna have you go you kind of just say like I'm willing to go and then they they allocate you where you're needed and open it up and it said I'd be serving in Singapore and I'm like I think I heard that on Pirates of the Caribbean where's Singapore you know what I mean like I had no idea but then I go and now like yeah like international travel and and stuff is something that I'm very much drawn to right so I think it's I think it is like getting exposed at that age to to some of that would would make more sense but um so then so then you you. Go you do some international travel you come back and start to realize my backyard is is totally unexplored in in a way right so then you start backpacking there how long was it before you looked seriously at a through hike.
Rue: Oh I mean it I guess that I like growing up off the Appalachian Trail I guess I always knew that was It was kind of there yeah I think I was afraid to do it like I I don't think I was afraid of failing I don't think I was afraid of um something happening to me I know I wasn't you know not because I'm like arrogant or Cavalier but just I don't know I was young and I wasn't worried about that I was like more worried about like what people would think of me honestly yeah like that they would think that I was stupid for trying or um that was being irresponsible with my life and I should like grow up and do something or you know just like all this conditioning that comes into.
Rue: Your life from your community and society and and things like that so stepping out of society for a long time the first time I think was a bit challenging but when it actually came down to it to hike the Appalachian Trail I lived in Georgia at the time so I lived like near the southern Terminus of the Appalachian Trail and like when I made the decision I I don't even remember when I just one day I was like I'm going and I just resigned from my job and went so yeah um and I have money you know um not a lot of money I mean it used to be like we would say a dollar a mile so the Appalachian trails two grand you know and I always travel cheap so I doubt I doubt. I doubt I even I doubt I spent 1200 bucks I doubt it I really doubt it you're pretty good at.
Tayson: Foraging and picking you know up mushrooms and stuff in the or what I mean how do you eat on that kind of money I mean that's just crazy.
Rue: You just don't you you um well you just don't you just don't enjoy like you don't enjoy like the taste of the local taste you know yeah you're not going into town to have a nice sit-down meal every two three days and I'm going in and getting groceries and leaving like yeah you know not really any money for hotels or hostels or just not buying like Gourmet backpacking food the freeze dry food all the way and no and I mean I'm so lucky now because I work with Aaron from Backcountry foodie and you know she keeps me uh keeps me going and like with good nutrition but when I was a young man you know she calls it like the honey bun Trail I mean I was definitely more on like the honey bun Trail. You know if I went in and like you know if there were if there was like back then you know if there are five candy bars for a dollar at the dollar store or something you know that's was like oh here's my you know here's my fuel and it worked yeah and as I've gotten older it works less it works a lot less like the sugar the sugar train just doesn't work as well anymore.
Tayson: Yeah I think yeah I'm sure the age is a factor like I I look at that and it's just like yeah the older I get the longer it takes to recover and the one you know some of those things but I think also I'm I'm privileged like I'm so lucky because we sell backpacking food so we just have an infinite Supply here in the warehouse and so anytime we're going out like we're eating very well but I interviewed uh a gentleman by the name of Joshua Perry recently and he set the FKT on the PCT for self-supported and he's eating 6 000 calorie series of candy a day yeah um plus you know 3 000 calories of bars and 3 000 calories and nuts you know what I mean so yeah but it's like I. Think the body really can adapt and I think if people do get over you know hyper analyze that I I think that that's probably a shame in some ways like I love to talk about performance performance you know like food and stuff like that but in reality like you can do so much out of twelve hundred dollars that's amazing yeah I mean I someone.
Rue: Asked me today actually because I'm here at the shelter and you know there's North Country people around the gentleman Buck Huff who built this is a member of ours um we did not uh we did not ask him to build this our members because we don't you know there is not a strong governing body with committee upon committee upon committee upon board upon board upon board that empowers local people because otherwise when you have that kind of structure you have to get permission to do any little tiny thing anywhere about anything and so even if it is off Trail in a town someone can come to you which this has happened on Trails where people have put up like signs on their barn or something and the trail organization has been like you know that's. Not correct so you either need to correct it and make it like ours or take it down like this happens I can give you an example I'm not going to go into it here yeah but that's what I'm saying like when you're an organization like us it's very empowering for local people and they end up doing things like what you see behind me right now that's.
Tayson: Amazing um yeah and so let me let me ask this about your at experience what do you feel like was the biggest lesson you learned on that first through hike.
Rue: Um humanity is good I I came into that first long hike uh falling into some cynicism you know um I'm not even sure why 911 had just happened um we were at War um I just I wasn't sure which direction in my country was going none of us were you know I wasn't the only one and uh and also just like a lot of existential questions being out on your own you know I was young so being out on your own and forging for yourself in the world you know from the time of 17 or 18 and um and just asking some really large questions about okay now I'm a man what kind of man am I going to be in this world yeah so uh that was something that I learned like what kind.
Rue: Of man am I what am I going to be and it wasn't about being tough because what I actually found out with the Appalachian Trail this is something that I learned was that the trail is um it's it's rough you know I when I'm backpacking I always have Cuts like I don't even know where they come from I have no idea where they come from but I have like slices on my legs my feet are all roughed up my Skin's rubbed up my shoulders are maybe like calloused or something because I carry a lot of weight on my shoulders and and and so I'm like it's abrasive you know the trail is very abrasive but it's like almost to me because of like the negativity and some of the cynicism that I brought into the.
Rue: Experience that I didn't have my entire life I was going through a thing I was going through a phase kind of the trail was so abrasive that it was almost like sandpaper to Wood and the thing about like sandpaper on wood is sandpaper is rough but it doesn't make the Wood Rough it actually smoothes it out and so the trail for me was like this abrasive thing that actually smoothed out some of some of the edges some of the rougher edges so that was something that I learned and Community you know.
Tayson: Yeah yeah we met a young gentleman by the name of turtle out there and you know I just he just finished College very young he was Genius of a of a you know but this education side he was very very smart and got through college really quickly and I think he was like 20 years old with a bachelor's degree and went out there on trail and it was you know as we were talking to him it's like man that was just such a good rite of passage type of experience you know what I mean to go do this Trail get perspective on life get perspective on people and um and I think it could have a lifelong impact on the trajectory of your life right so so you go you hike the at and then. What do you immediately just start cereal through hiking or do you go back into normal society for years no I kind.
Rue: Of I I mean I I guess it's more of the serial backpacking um I so I was focused on this American idea at this point so like I'm not buying tickets I'm I'm not buying tickets to go somewhere else in the world you know I'm I'm like honed in on this American experience that I want to have and um and so then I get in this cycle for most of my 20s which is pretty much all of my 20s which is I work like really hard seasonal jobs seasonal contracts for like six months or so and then I take off for six months and so I you know if I have to work two or three jobs then I do that they are still like part of my life because I'm taking jobs that are.
Rue: Like either Environmental Education or teaching and education um geo-environmental science Recreation even like ski instruction you know it's still like in the Outdoor World and and doing something a little bit in alignment with other things that I wanted to pursue in my life so and some of the times I was doing all those things at one time you know like some during the week and then the weekends were full with this and it was a really great time for me I had a lot of energy for it and so I just worked a lot and and saved up and I traveled a lot because my work was always in different places so the travel was built into that you know like every time I took a new position I was going to a different place.
Rue: In the United States so then like travel was inherently built into that but you know like there wasn't um a really strong connections and relationships with people but very short-lived and um no so no cell phones or like social media and stuff so like unless you're going to be writing people letters like a lot of the time it was kind of the end of the season or you meet people on trail and when it's over it's kind of like okay maybe maybe see you around maybe not and yeah I mean that's that's the way that that was the way my 20s went and and so yeah a lot of backpacking a lot of traveling a lot of working.
Tayson: So you go from the 80 then what was your next trip what was your next did you go straight into the next three hike then I couldn't I mean it wasn't possible I mean right so what was your next through hike you did then on your Triple Crown yeah I mean I I hiked the PIN code after.
