Tayson: Hey everybody welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast today we have a very special guest Matthew Nielsen on Matthew you've been the executive director of the Arizona Trail Association or the ATA since 2012. Um the ATA for those that don't know is a non-profit organization whose mission is to protect maintain and enhance and promote uh the Arizona Trail it's an 800 mile Scenic Trail that spans the entire north-south length of the U.S state of Arizona obviously for those of you that don't know what the Arizona Trail is I feel like it's getting more famous so whatever you're doing Matthew is definitely working and I'm going to throw you a really difficult question right out of the gate which is just Why should someone want to consider hiking.
Matthew: The Arizona Trail top reason oh uh to get away from everything else in life I think that's that's one of the things that long distance Trails provide is a nature immersion experience that you would never get otherwise unless you dedicate the time to getting really far out really far out of your comfort zone really away from the comfort of Life Family work and all of it to really reconnect with what's most important so whether it's the AZT or the PCT the Continental Divide I feel like all these long distance Trails especially National Scenic Trails exist as an opportunity for people to stop what they're doing or when they're at a transition phase in life and then just to go for a long walk or in the case of our Trail along bike ride or a. Long horseback ride just to get out there and remember what's most important.
Tayson: Yeah you hit on a lot of amazing things there I think the Arizona Trail has a lot of differences to compared to a lot of the other Trails out there that I really want to dig into that might make it more interesting or seasonally more interesting things like that but the way you just spoke right there Matthew it it it seems like you've done some long.
Matthew: Distance hiking is that is that true I have before taking this job uh all of my professional Pursuits were all based around the outdoors so whether that was outdoor guiding outdoor photojournalism a youth uh outdoor adventure programs I spend all my time Outdoors because what I've found is that like nature was my greatest teacher I was the happiest version of myself when I was out there and so now within a leadership role within this organization I don't get Outdoors as much as I used to but I'm willing to take one for the team now to make sure that this Trail is protected and maintained so that other people can get out there for a day or for a weekend or for you know kind of the adventure of a lifetime and for a lot of.
Matthew: People as you probably know like 800 miles seems you know daunting or impossible but then when compared with like the CDT or the PCT it's kind of bite-sized so I like that we get to work on a trail within a single state which makes it much easier and then also that has this different seasonality so we see people doing it you know Northbound in the spring southbound in the fall and then an occasional wacko that we'll try it you know mid-summer.
Tayson: It'd be pretty crazy to try that mid-summer that's for sure yeah it is it is just an interesting Trail in that perspective though where it is in a single state and I think a lot of people think of Arizona as desert right which it is I'm not going to say it's not but but there's High Desert and there's a lot of dynamic changes that happen within Arizona right on obviously clear down by when you're down by Mexico right it is just like true desert right I think of like you know Wiley Coyote cartoon type desert right and then um but you get up in by Flagstaff I mean there's there's high mountains there's there's just a massive change in that so um like you say even even starting it at different times depending on what. You're going um is pretty important not just avoided.
Matthew: In the summer right yeah yeah the the one comment that we hear most often from through hikers because when people finish the trail we ask them to take a survey and if you take the survey we give you a copper belt buckle there's like a finisher's completion award but the information we get from that survey is is really pretty valuable and what stands out more than any other comment is that the Shocker to people is the biodiversity people have no idea how diverse the trail is and you're right down by the border a little bit lower elevation and you start around like 5 000 feet or so but if you're Northbound on day one you're in Aspens and Pines on that very first day so you climb from you know the Sonoran Desert and the.
Matthew: Grasslands up to like Aspen and Pine Forest and for anybody who's ever spent time traveling in North America what we've found is that a lot of the biodiversity that you see in Mexico and what you see in Canada all exists within the State of Arizona it's just all smashed together and so there's about 110 000 feet of elevation gain uh in that 800 miles and so what that means is it's never flat you're constantly going up and down mountain ranges and through canyons and valleys and the trail was really designed that way to really show off Arizona's biodiversity uh but but it's a bit of a Crusher because because you have so much elevation gain in so many ranges but it's a cool way to really kind of show off how diverse the state is. Which you'd never know unless you were out there in the dirt.
Tayson: Well I think I think showing that off and just experiencing that in a more condensed window like that is something that really is alluring to people right because even for me right like where my profession is has a lot to do with hiking and backpacking um it's still tough to get away right I still have a profession I still have a family I still have young kids and so when I look at something like the the PCT or the at like they're so long and so daunting that it's almost like unless my kids move out and something else happens that I don't know you know wouldn't want to happen like I'm not gonna go hike these Trails like it's just not a real possibility unless I do massive amounts of section hiking or something like.
Tayson: That and so I think that's where the Arizona Trail and the Colorado Trail um are very interesting to me because I could I could see how over the course of you know a couple of years I could section hike those to completion um without you know taking this massive toll in another area of my life right so I think that that's that's a very interesting what attracts me to something like the Arizona Trails is still this massive belt buckle apparently that I get right but massive challenge to go and and uh you know take on and and feel really good at the end of it as well but but it's not 2 000 miles right.
Matthew: Exactly and I love that about it uh I I came to work for the organization long after the trailer had been established you know for 20 years and the organization had been around and all that but yeah I love the fact that people get this uh condensed experience as opposed to some of the longer trails that you mentioned and you know we really promote the trail for for all non-motorized uses and for day hikers and overnighters and for through hikers as well and what we found is that you know through hikers probably make up a small percentage two or three percent of people that are out there on the trail whereas a lot of people are just getting up for a day because there's a Trailhead maybe near their home or to a particularly beautiful.
Matthew: Destination but then what we're seeing more and more and more is that people go out and hike for a day and they go wow this trail goes all the way to Mexico because a lot of our signage when you get on the trail there will be a sign that literally says you know Mexico 400 miles Utah 300 miles and I think that's an aha moment for a lot of people like I could really walk all the way to Mexico Maybe not today and so they begin to section hike it so we're seeing more and more people that are finishing the trail over a period of many years because they'll pick it apart you know a segment at a time or a weekend here and there's some deep Wilderness segments that take maybe four or five. Days to get through but a lot of segments you could probably link together with other Trails or other roads and do it in like kind of bite-sized portions.
Tayson: Yeah yeah that's I love that signage I think I think that's really great and it would be very interesting to people to see that right and it's just start getting the wheels turning because I think I think when it comes to Long Trails a lot of it is just people wrapping their heads around it because some people will hear it and maybe just instantly latch on and other people are going to hear about the distances and it's going to be years and years of them like wrapping their head around that concept of like maybe I could go do that maybe maybe that is something that's interesting to me um and I think I think eventually we're gonna have to get you to to move to Utah and we'll work together on building a Utah trail. Just to either continue on or just a totally different route right because um I think I think there needs to be more of these I think it's I think it's really amazing but maybe well well actually you also mentioned there that there's there's motorized or non-motorized use and stuff right so like what percentage of of the trail is getting used by not just hikers or foot.
Matthew: Traffic yeah it kind of depends on which Trailhead we're looking at or which Community because there are some I mean most segments of the Arizona trail that are outside designated Wilderness are open to mountain bikes but the riding is so hard because these Trails weren't really designed or built with mountain bikes in mind all the new segments that have been built over the past say 15 or 20 years have been built kind of to equestrian standards uh and so by doing that the trail is a little bit wider the corridors cleared a little bit more and so it's also a little bit friendlier to say mountain bikes as well as hikers but overall I would say if we look at finishers people that are finishing the trail still about 65 to 70 percent are on.
Matthew: Foot and then that other like 29 probably close to 30 percent would be on mountain bikes and then there's a few people that do it on Horseback but long distance horse packing trips are logistically very intensive and the biggest resource concern on the AZT for everybody is water where you get it how reliable it is it's quality and all that and I think you know you and I are only going to go through a couple gallons a day whereas horses are looking at like five to ten gallons a day and so depending on the gear rainfall drought conditions and things like that it makes it a little bit more challenging for people to do on horseback.
Tayson: Yeah that's a really interesting aspect and and recently when I was at um I went out to the Appalachian Trail and hiked on that trail and about halfway through we realized just how valuable the there's an app called far out um really is right we were we were way over carrying water in the beginning and then just even things such as campsite selection so on so forth it was by the end it was like the moment we heard about this or you know got more like on trail we should have just downloaded it and gone straight from there because it would have saved us so much time um just far out have an app or is that all resources that you guys provide you know to hikers to just help with some of that water. You know situation yeah far.
Matthew: Out and I partnered a few years ago then it was called hook guides they it was I had dreamed about putting together an app for the Arizona Trail I mean navigation obviously but mostly about water sources and then how do we report on like quantity quality reliability and those kinds of things because what I've what I've experienced personally extreme dehydration and then coming across a water source that under any other circumstance nobody could have paid me enough to drink from it you know it smells like cow poop it's because it's full of cow poop uh it's green you know you slide the scum off the top and then try to filter it still tastes terrible and but that might be your only one.
Tayson: Question and also notice also just with that not cut you off there but for those that don't live in a desert you can filter that water and you can drink it right but you have to will smell and taste the same forever forever yeah your filter's done like if you if you choose to do it you're getting a new filter so imagine that's your only water source say for 20 miles you come across me like oh this is disgusting there must be something better around the corner unless you did the advanced planting or unless you have the app you might not know that you might be another day out from real water in that day's time you could dehydrate to the point where it's medically dangerous right so I dreamed.
Matthew: About developing an app to show to help people's navigation but mostly to document these water sources but I'm not an app developer at all and then fortunately uh almost out of the blue gut hook contacted us and said you know we have an app for these long Trails we'd like to do one for the AZT and I looked at what they did and I thought this is absolutely perfect so we provided all the data to them because we'd already had it we've been studying water sources for about a decade with photographs GPS coordinates and all of it and so we've added layers to the gut or the far out app over time and through that through the survey that I mentioned for the completion award what we found is that about 98 of people that.
Matthew: Finish the trail are using the app which makes me really happy because I mean I wrote a guidebook on the trail 10 years ago and the thing was outdated the day that it was published because there was a new reroute there was a closure and there's this and there's that but with the app like we can update that thing in real time and you know wildfires are a major concern Statewide usually starting in February or March and then going you know through the summer sometimes even into the fall and so if there's a closure or there's a hazard we can get that thing updated that day so that whoever's out there on the trail who's using it can get that information like literally in real time and that kind of technology is just amazing for. For hiker safety.
Tayson: Yeah it it truly is like I don't know so Arizona Trail will be so brutal that I feel like it's just such a leg up right like when I was on when we were on the 80 right so we started off coming from Western hiking right where I think we were carrying each like almost four liters of water and we just surpassing like water source after water sourcing like this is stupid you know so so like by like day two we're down to two liters and then like another day we're carrying like one liter of water um but then we had like a long water carry where we're like oh crap we did I wish that we would have known this was a long water carry and um and but people are using the app.
Tayson: It was so and this is I don't know this isn't supposed to be a big promotional for far out or anything like that but like it was so specific and and actual right because that's like they're getting user generated content back it seems like where they're saying like this isn't a good water source they can update that pretty quickly and um anyways it it literally felt like all these people that had the app had a guide walking the trail with them like it was that specific it was better than a guide right because it's it's just so much more real time and on a trail like the Arizona Trail where water is is such a predicament um I can't imagine like not you know getting a hold of something like that a resource like that. Would be absolutely critical and it's really cool to see you guys partnering to to supply that because you're just enabling so many more people to get out there on the trail right exactly and doing it safely.
Matthew: I mean let's be honest the trail is hard enough as it is you know between the Sun and the extreme conditions you can go from boiling to freezing in a single day it's Rocky it's you know just on and on and on by having a little bit more information it's not making it any easier it's just making a little bit safer and I love the fact that we've been able to partner with them to provide data and then like you said there's user generated content and so if you're two days ahead of me I can look at your comment and you can say like oh this water source is dry or you know it's flowing and wonderful so it really kind of helps with planning and it sounds like a lot of people who do.
Matthew: The AZT they might have some destinations in mind oh I want to see in this particular Canyon or this area but once you're out there it really becomes a water source to water source I mean that becomes your focus and as dire as that may sound there's also something really pretty cool and beautiful and Elemental about that because you're thinking about where am I going to get my water now how many times during the day are you thinking where am I going to get my water in normal life you're not it's always available but it's like essential to life so I think it's good you know to kind of help people uh get re re recentered on what's most important.
Tayson: Yeah and and a lot of times where the water sources are you know there's an aspect of beauty you know there in in in and of itself too so um that is that is a pretty interesting thing I will say I think about water a lot but I also can consume a lot of water right we we fast pack the Grand Canyon um in May and on day one we did 38 miles and I consumed 12 liters of water and I was like not enough water still right um which like is mind-blowing right when you really think about people that maybe have never consumed that much water and I later ran A different race and and Ultra and is this just the same scenario like I just I sweat a lot and so I'm constantly.
Tayson: Thinking like that but if if you're looking at these Trails having something like this is so enabling too because for me um planning is like one of the number one things that'll keep me from doing something if it's too overwhelming to plan sometimes it's just like I just don't have time or I don't get it personally like some people love to plan they get a lot of enjoyment out of planning and I and I might get some out of it but like if it's too overwhelming to plan I just won't do it like it's just like I'll look for something easier or I'll wait till someone else plans it and then I'm super happy to go and execute right but um I think that that's just a massive massive tool you guys have put together.
Tayson: But I'd like to hear a little bit more about just what the Arizona Trail Association is your involvement um obviously you guys have you know been doing amazing work you're opening you're kind of opening up this Trail more and more just getting more and more traffic and and I love the purpose of what you kind of touched on I like to Circle back to that too but maybe explain what the Arizona Trail is and and just just at a high level what it what it's really trying to accomplish yeah you know you.
Matthew: Know you mentioned our mission right essentially protect maintain promote enhance the Arizona Trail as a unique encounter with the natural environment and the organization was formed initially to kind of help build this Trail because it was a concept that came came before the trail existed and before there was an organization like wouldn't it be nice if there was a long distance Trail through the entire State of Arizona really inspired by Appalachian Trail and then in looking at a map it was like well there's already a bunch of trail on the ground what if we just linked it together that was really kind of what started it all and so that building those little segments is what the organization was focused on for almost 20 years and then once the trail was completed in like 2011.
Matthew: Then I mean really that's when the organization hired me and said truck instructions done now we need somebody to protect and maintain it that's the hard part and so we've really been focused on those two elements but then when I look at the quality of Trail compared to like Pacific Crest Trail or Pacific northwest trail and some of the others using existing Trail that's been on the ground for a decade or sometimes a century is not the best route because it wasn't intelligently designed it wasn't designed for multiple uses sometimes it was an old like animal trail that was improved for Recreation on Forest Service lands and then the trail was also linked together by a bunch of dirt roads which if you've ever been on a long distance adventure and then you're sharing a.
Matthew: Route with uh with motorized traffic kind of takes away from the experience uh and Congress says that when it's a national Scenic Trail it's supposed to be non-motorized so we've been doing a lot of Trail construction over the past say five years specifically to find those dirt road segments and then to build single tracks nearby and those have been really rewarding because in a way we get to really design the route from point to point with all these things in mind like oh where are the best views where are the water sources uh let's think about Wildlife corridors and cultural resources and so I feel like the trail we built recently is really high quality so it's been fun to like enhance the trail you know the best that we can um but high level.
Matthew: Really what I believe to be true is that you know people will only protect what they love and they only love what they have like what they know really well or they've had intimate experiences with so my goal is to get as many people out there as possible to experience this Trail and not just the trail because the trail is just an access really to like these incredible Landscapes and if people have an amazing experience Within These landscapes they're more likely to like volunteer to help maintain it vote to protect it when that when there's opportunities for that and so the goal has just been exposing people to the Landscapes whether it's in their own backyard close to home if they live in Arizona or using this as an international destination because as you know.
Matthew: The trail goes through Grand Canyon Saguaro National Park Gila River Canyons incredible mountain ranges that most people have never heard of in Southern Arizona uh and so it's it's more of like a pathway for personal transformation like I joke all the time about rewriting our mission statement you know because although we are a trail organization and we engage thousands of volunteers to help maintain it what we're really doing is protecting this pathway so that people can have like these transformative experiences.
Tayson: Yeah there there's so much there I think to unpack um I think obviously like you guys are just just optimizing this Trail at such a high level but it's so interesting to think about just how much truth there is to people will protect what they love and it's and it's just these two things that you've gotta balance now right if we're trying to drive traffic into it but we also want to protect it right and so um it really begs this question of like how do you do that right um you know do you lock it down to protect it or do you to try to open it up so that more people care about it right because that's you know when you come into a democracy voting all those types of things it's it's.
Tayson: Peop enough people have to care to vote voted in right and to and to keep those things alive so um what what do you see as a trail you know maintainer organizer of these types of Crews and things what can people do just as they're hiking to improve the trail and the experience I mean obviously there's there's some underlying principles you know whether it be something from leave no trace or just making sure you're maintaining your own trash those types of things but is there things like maybe even more specific to the trail itself that would be helpful for people to do or pay attention or or maintain as they go yeah that's a.
Matthew: Wonderful question I feel like you know Trail maintenance is a massive Endeavor like anybody who's ever done Trail maintenance or even if you haven't if you've ever done landscaping or yard work okay now imagine doing that in the most extreme climate you know 40 miles from the nearest trail head at a high elevation you know it just completely inaccessible terrain that's really what we're tasked with and when I say we it's the thousands and thousands of volunteers who help maintain the trail every year but what we know is that a lot of people aren't going to want to carry heavy tools and Hike way into the back country to do something like that and we have to maintain all 800 miles so we developed a really basic way for people whether it's through hikers or.
Matthew: That are going out for the weekend if they want to bring um like loppers or snippers or like a small handsaw we provide those we'll mail to your home a trail tool and a pair of gloves and a waiver and but then also just instructions on the best way to maintain a trail when it comes to brushing because I really think that the long-term maintenance of these Trails is in the hands of the many like we don't need to be there to remind you to wear a hard hat we don't need to be there to you know to oversee everything like that's important when we're doing large events but really I think that if I look 10 or 50 100 years uh you know into the future I think that these long distance trails are.
Matthew: Going to be maintained by the community whether that's people from the town that live closest to the trail or for those of us that are in the trail community that care enough to kind of give back a little bit so I'd say a lot of Trail organizations have lots of opportunities and whether that's through donating or volunteering but then also I think just being out there and having those amazing experiences and then sharing them with others because so often I think we at least in 2022 and I'll only speak for myself I squeeze in these Outdoor Adventures whenever there's a little bit of free time and a few times a year I'll prioritize them you know for a trip or an adventure or something like that but oftentimes I'm just squeezing in these nature immersion.
Matthew: Experiences as like supplemental to my life and then I'm back to work I'm gonna pick the kid up and I got this thing and I almost I don't share those experiences with others um but I think that's important to remind people that we should be prioritizing time Outdoors you know call it self-care whatever you want but I think that when we make time to be outdoors the investment in self family community is huge and it's not something that's recognized often enough and sometimes we feel guilty for not working right who wants to hear about the last time Matt went on a hike or whatever the reality is when we share that with people maybe it's a reminder like I prioritize this and it's important you know maybe you should make time for it as well.
Matthew: And if you can't make time for it then join me you know come out with me the next time something like that but we're not seeing overcrowding on the AZT I think that it has become more popular you're absolutely right we try not to tell people about all the secret spots and there's these deep Wilderness areas that will always have very few visitors but I do think that the more people that find out about the trail and whether they're using it for an hour or a day the use is so dispersed that it's not not an issue at least not right now and I would rather more people know about it and care about it and then if we're finding in 10 years that wow there's a lot of people on the AZT well guess. What there's a hundred connector trails that will take you to other areas so if you want like opportunities for Solitude those are always going to exist especially in the West.
Tayson: Yeah yeah so there's a few questions I want to ask on from there but sticking with with the maintenance side of things I think that's that's incredibly uh Forward Thinking to to mail out you know things like that little loppers and and whatnot is that kind of what you're seeing the most is the most beneficial is just for them to maintain vegetation because one thing about it is people think mountains are good at growing you know vegetation but really I think they're good at growing rocks you know right like especially down there where you get like flash flood type storms right you get these big monsoons that roll in and they just erode the trail I imagine they've got to avoid the trail at massive massive amounts we see it here in southern Utah um.
Tayson: And becomes a massive I I you know even in the Uinta on in the uintas I don't think they make Trails there I think they make dry River beds and column Trails uh you know on the second it rains you're just got a river that you're walking in right and so um obviously there's probably limitations to what people can do for that so you're are you would you suggest I guess per se that just people trying to keep back vegetation off of the trail is about the best thing they can do as they go yep I think so it's a haircut.
Matthew: You know and the hair needs to be cut pretty consistently like what we just saw this summer was almost near record rainfall so in in here herein lies our cycle right now in the west right where there's long periods of drought and then wildfires and then boom massive rainfall and that is the worst or the best depending on how you look at it recipe for erosion and our Trails can become just these erosional Pathways uh and so what we're seeing especially now is that in in Autumn after summer rains have come and gone that so much overgrowth is crowding the trail that people are being treaded or have a hard time finding the trail so hacking back the vegetation is at least a twice a year Endeavor for 800 miles so it's pretty significant but. Then the Rocks issue is a big one I haven't people I drive people crazy if I'm running I won't stop and pick up rocks but if I'm hiking I spend just as much time either kicking rocks off the trail or picking them up hoping that somebody has more of a pleasant experience you know behind me but I think little things like that are a really great way to kind of give back yeah yeah I love that.
Tayson: Um when you talk about the ATA or the Arizona Trail Association are there full-time people like working within this organization is it just you that's full-time or is it all volunteer.
Matthew: Uh it's a combo so we have a pretty robust staff uh right now there's 17 people who work for the Arizona Trail Association and I would say about a dozen of them are full-time uh and that's you know people like me as executive director and admin person a full-time Trail director a full-time volunteer coordinator uh and then we also have staff that specifically engage Youth and Veterans so we have a big Statewide youth outreach program and that came about about 10 years ago when I first started working for the ATA and I realized that you know at the time I was probably almost 40 and I was like wow I'm the youngest one in the room by like half my age and unless we're getting more young people excited about the trail and involved then.
Matthew: 30 years of hard work could disappear in another decade or at least in another generation so we get about 1200 kids on average out on the Arizona Trail every year and not just for a field trip but we get them out on the trail five to ten times during the school day during the school year and it becomes part of part of the fabric of their their school curriculum and that program is really amazing because I think that the investment in youth means that those people are going to replace our Trail stewards and our staff and kind of grow up knowing that the Arizona Trail is theirs and it's theirs to care for so there's a couple of four staff that just work with youth engagement programs and then about a year and a half.
Matthew: Ago uh we hired a full-time veteran Outreach coordinator and mostly what he does is works with recently returned combat veterans to get them out on the trail one to build a community as veterans Outdoors to provide a safe space for veterans to come together and also gives them a mission so what we do is these veterans volunteer work weekends to get them out maintaining the trail building new segments of Trail and that program has been so popular that we've been able to actually expand that into paid opportunities for vets to do stuff that's kind of beyond the ability of some of our volunteers like deep Back Country work so yeah really proud of the work that we've been doing there.
Tayson: Yeah I mean as you're talking about this it just seems like such a a well-run organization right like most of the time you just think about volunteers and you just think of just the headaches and and the lack of innovation also as far as just forward thinking and trying to to get these things to work together right and it sounds just absolutely incredible the the way that you've put this together the the Forward Thinking the just all these different elements that really do play into the long-term health of a trail like this um it's absolutely incredible how do you how do you like gain funding for this besides you know some level of donation I would imagine but um I imagine there's got to be Grant work or something like that that you're just trying. You're justifying as you go and um you know and grants are are amazing if if you can if you can get them right but I imagine someone there is really understands that system and is being able to pour pull some of that in to be able to to build such amazing resources.
Matthew: This exactly yeah it takes a village to both like maintain the trail which is our main focus right but then in order to keep the organization like healthy and functional Innovative uh and then also kind of sustainable because so much of what we do is based on a sustainability model for the trail itself and engaging people but when I look at like this organization uh you know we're 28 years old now and I've been uh with them for about 10 years my goal is to make the trail sustainable and if the organization can be sustainable too that's great but if we all work ourselves out of a job job and we train and Inspire tens of thousands of people to be Trail stewards and Trail protectors and you know Trail Advocates mission accomplished then I.
Matthew: Could see the organization going away at some point as long as there's a big enough Community to sustain it but I think we have a lot of work to do to get there like another generation or so before we get to that point so the goal has been to yet to keep to keep enough money flowing in to support it what we try to do is maintain a pretty diverse like stream of funding so that if there's ever an economic downturn or a government shutdown or things like that that our funding source if there's only one or two you know doesn't just disappear but it's a big mix of like donations membership dollars we put on special events like trail running events that generates about 100 Grand a year and do a lot of grant.
Matthew: Writing like you said uh both myself and we also have a development director and she's only focused on fundraising for the organization um we also have like corporate donors and then the forest service we have like a challenge cost share agreement with them and that's made up more and more and more of a percentage of our budget because of like a trust relationship because federal agencies just don't give money to anybody despite what you read you really got to work for it and so what I've found is that by increasing our own capacity and showing this agency especially the forest service that we have better capacity than they do we're a lot more cost efficient than they are and we can leverage it with private money and volunteers that I've been able to shake loose. A little bit more Federal funding so right now you know with staff 17 like 2500 volunteers that participate about 100 businesses a dozen communities or so yeah it's yeah it's pretty amazing.
Tayson: Yeah it's it's absolutely amazing and and I don't want to get too far into the weeds as far as just like maybe some of the listeners right now aren't understanding as much of this why it's important but from my perspective as a business owner it's it's absolutely you know impressive what you're doing and what you're act what you're trying to put on because it's just not really heard of to to operate in that way and you know when I went out and hiked on the atus I was very impressed at how well maintained that trail is but that Trail's got you know decades and Decades of time over the top of this one you know and and there's just so much longer Heritage there and so to do what you've been doing in such a.
Tayson: Short amount of time I think is is incredible for sure and you know I I think selfishly my hope would be that you would work yourself out of a job and retire in Utah and I don't know why many people to Utah uh other than that you made me visit for a minute and leave right but not but uh no I mean seriously I mean you you could probably Mentor people in different states and just just have a phenomenal impact you know nationally and what you've been doing because it sounds very very incredible no I have to give credit.
Matthew: To Appalachian Trail and Pacific Crest Trail because I feel like they're the model you know for first of all 80 without a doubt and the ATC Appalachian Trail Conservancy have really wrote the um the the playbook for how to build manage and maintain a trail and then I grew up uh right next to the Pacific Crest Trail on the east side of the Sierra Nevada and the Owens Valley of California so I spent all of my youth really exploring uh the Eastern Sierra and spending time on the PCT and so being able to see how those trails are managed and then coming into this role at the Arizona Trail Association I feel like we're doing a pretty good job but it's only because we're standing on the shoulders of giants if you will right.
Tayson: Right I mean and that's just a sign of of a good leader as well though is you don't need to create something that's already working right and then just building on top of that so um so I want to Pivot back just a little bit to I mean one I I feel like we could talk so much about the trail itself which I I do still want to talk a little bit more about that but you've touched on a few a few times just the the idea of um self-care getting out on trail to disconnect to connect more with yourself rather than everything around you and um that's been something that's been very top of mind for me lately is is just this I don't even know how to put it quite into words but.
Tayson: But Tech I'll say technology but but even to take it a step more more further I guess it has a lot to do with I would say just social media in general right is there's good things that can come out of social media but far too often when I peel back the layers um I'm not getting value out of it in fact in fact someone said this recently that I was listening to they said that if you don't have to pay for a service then you are the service right right like so like when you look at Facebook or Instagram or any of these things like we're the product right and we're the consumers right and and then I turn around and buy ads on on the platforms right so so um anyway so this.
Tayson: This this has been rolling around in my head so much and I've thought about it for a long time like that's one of the biggest things in fact in our mission statement at one point it was it felt too wordy but we had written it in there that our purpose was to help people get Outdoors to improve you know their physical mental and emotional health and um it's something that just really resides with me this month actually I decided you know just just to get rid of social media off of my phone for instance just to try it out for a month and see what that's like and it's been it's been fascinating and it was far easier than I expected in so many ways and you know for work purposes I still will sometimes.
Tayson: Get on um to some of our groups and stuff from it from a desktop computer but I can punch in I can punch out very easily um but I'm starting to believe that it's it's absolutely like the number one priority of our of our day and age is to help people with this I I like because whether you're me and and look I I have nothing really to complain about in my life like I I I uh you know everyone's life is hard but I mean like I I I'm doing my dream job uh businesses as well I love our team is phenomenal here and you know got amazing kids an amazing wife and I live I live in an awesome an awesome life but doesn't mean that I'm just like in happy for no.
Tayson: Reason right because I can easily get onto Facebook or Instagram or whatever it is and I can just start comparing even when I don't realize I'm comparing I'm always comparing and there's no such thing as a as a is a healthy comparison other than comparing yourself against yourself of the past right am I improving myself or am I not and anyways you've touched on this a few times I'd love to hear your take on this because I just I think that's the biggest driver and and and something that I'm just thinking more and more about like how can I have a bigger impact there you know is that what Outdoor Vitals needs to really focus on with our charitable donations or things that we do and propagate is just helping people realize that whether you're. You Know Rich poor you know whether you're discriminate against or not like you can be happy on any side of the coin and most the time it's from a lack of connection with yourself and just massive comparisons from from the connection of Technology but yeah.
Matthew: I completely agree we should go for a hike sometime and talk about this and leave our phones leave our phones behind um I totally I totally agree and I think you know that was one of the motivations for starting the youth program like I mentioned before yeah I want to you know replace our stewards and our staff and all that but really what what I'm seeing I have a 13 year old kid too uh what I'm seeing is more of a Reliance on technology uh and as much as I try to restrict the use or say okay I'm not going to do social media today myself personally like we're a little trapped we're a little trapped in it but what I've found is that as soon as I am outdoors in nature I mean yeah.
Matthew: Occasionally I'll use the app or I'll use my phone to take a photograph is that a lot of those layers get peeled back and the thing that I love the most about outdoors and Outdoor Adventures is that uh I get my ego completely shattered and crushed and that doesn't happen in a normal life especially not through social media or through you know controlled relationship interactions that I have I think the ego gets the best of me I think that's you know just kind of part of you know human nature but when I go out for a long hike or a run or a bike ride and I just get completely smashed by the weather or dehydration or exhaustion and it breaks me down to my core then I'm like wow this is what happiness really.
Matthew: Feels like and I know that Outdoors is not the same for everybody not everybody feels as comfortable you know as I do so I'm not going to put that on anybody else but personally I've found that I am absolutely the happiest I've ever been when I'm out in nature and sometimes it's when I'm getting my butt kicked when I'm really foreign outside of my comfort zone so providing the opportunity for people to have those experiences or to look into the mirror that is nature because we are nature right it is our nature to be outdoors and to be in those environments and only very recently within the past couple hundred years have we sheltered ourselves from that you know we've built homes to keep nature out we've built lives to keep nature out we've paved.
Matthew: Over everything and created what we think is how we're supposed to be living but then for me when I take my shoes off and I walk out into the dirt and I hear bird sounds and the way that you know sunlight is filtered through trees that feels natural that feels right and that reminder kind of keeps me going like I would like to do that again or the things I learned about myself when I'm out there so yeah I think whatever we can do collectively through the podcast through your company through organizations like ours if we're encouraging and making experiences like this more accessible then I think we're going to see better mental and emotional health not just within ourselves in our communities but you know Nation Nationwide.
Tayson: Yeah I always say that uh Mother Nature is is just the great humbler right kid just no matter how much you prepare no matter what you're doing you are gonna get humbled at some point could be from a storm it could be from a peak it could be from elevation you know it could be from whatever but but that that you know it's kind of like like that concept if you have to have light to experience dark um and with this it's like you know people might just suggest like why would you go do something hard you know and and sometimes I think people don't understand why you would do something hard but to me it's it's you do something hard so you can experience something that's not hard when you when you start eliminating.
Tayson: Things that are hard in every area of your life pretty soon it becomes gray like the whole thing just becomes gray and there's and there's no highs or lows right and um so yeah I I totally agree to me going getting in the outdoors and having those experiences of being humbled um or slightly uncomfortable at times or or these different things is what makes you feel the most present because you can't not be present when you're you know you know you've got this many miles to cover to get to beat this storm or or you know you need to get your shelter set up because it's cooling off fast in the desert and and those types of things right or you got to get to this water source because you're you're running you have to.
Tayson: Be present and that's something that um far too often people are just numbing out you know to say to say it another way they're just flipping open technology and they're just gone and they're feeling nothing right and and um so anyways I I totally agree with that and I think people when they cringe a little bit about oh well the outdoors could be uncomfortable like that's when you smile and say yes yes that's exactly what we're going for here right yeah.
Matthew: Because without it you know what is life about right so um.
Tayson: I love that I I I've uh just been pondering that question a lot as far as just it's just ways that that that uh Outdoor Vitals I guess and in ways because I I'm getting too far into tangent but I when we do like put money or effort into things I really want them to like be like you said it's very self-sustaining and just things that can grow Beyond us um you know we're the sparkness you know we have the ability to be a spark and I'd rather be the spark than than be the constant fuel for something um but we've taken up a lot of your time um but we're no by no means are we done yet because I do still want to hit highlights of this Trail I mean the initial question.
Tayson: That I had written down that I wanted to help solve for people is just why they should hike the Arizona Trail and we've talked about water we've talked about you know the organized organizing maintaining why we should just get outside but but why the Arizona Trail in particular um maybe talk maybe maybe just talk a little bit about some of the things that they could experience in Arizona that you just can't experience anywhere else um I can tell you right now like after hiking even just a little section of the at like you can't experience what you can experience in Arizona on the at and maybe vice versa to some extent right so there's going to be some really unique aspects of the trail I'd love to hear about maybe some of the top unique. Features of the trail oh that's a good.
Matthew: One thanks for asking that uh I feel like Solitude is a big one especially if you're through hiking or you're out for long distances at a time and this is something that I love and I appreciate but not all through hikers like it some people have dropped out and not finished the trail because they spent too much time alone and it was uncomfortable so I feel like still so few people are doing it as a long distance Endeavor that there are these opportunities for Solitude days where you might not encounter another human that's kind of unique and really hard to find in 2022 on planet Earth so I think that's a big one the other is like the views I feel like this route was intentionally chosen to be as wild and remote as possible. But to give you access to a town about every week if you're through hiking so say unlike Appalachian Trail which was really designed as a connective Greenway between communities between Maine and Georgia this is more like how can we stay as far away from towns and civilization as possible but then give you access to get into town to get you know whatever clean your socks and get a hamburger uh so I think that that you know.
Tayson: I I love that aspect because I like the Solitude I'm someone who enjoys that Solitude for sure and and I could absolutely see why people maybe that come from the Appalachian Trail straight over it'd be a polarizing completely opposite experience right um but I think there's like how to say they're like that is like what we've just talked about the harder part is the best part sometimes is some of these um we were shocked I guess by the amount of times you would cross through um cities on the Appalachian Trail and just the you know the constant actually being in like cell service and some of those things um so that's that's that's something to me that I I think is a phenomenal.
Matthew: Highlight actually yeah I agree and it may not be for everybody but that's something that you can expect on the trail um the other is I think that because it's in the west and because you hit so many mountain ranges like really if you look at an elevation profile of the AZT as you go like wow this is how is that even possible in this state and it's because especially in the southern part of the State uh it goes up and down numerous mountain ranges and So within each one of those the the biodiversity is a little bit unique and that's because you know as you know change happened over time sometimes species were isolated to these mountain ranges it's not always animals but often sometimes it's plants or cacti or flowers and so something.
Matthew: That grows in the Santa Rita Mountains two days later in the rincons you would never see that same plant again so even though you're in the same Zone and you can see that mountain range over there the things that grow there are just a little bit different again kind of adding to the biodiversity that's really pretty amazing and then the fact that you can go from like a cactus-filled forest in the morning to like snow up in the Pines in a single day and do that kind of over and over again over the period of a couple weeks I think that's another thing that makes it really unique until you get up you know a higher elevation your Flagstaff and then it's all kind of Ponderosa Pine Forest and so some people are relieved by.
Matthew: That because the trail is finally flat but then comes Grand Canyon and I think if there's I mean there's so many cool natural features that make this Trail over the top incredible but Grand Canyon National Park is definitely one of them you've been there most people have been there it's one of the most visited you know outdoor places on the planet but from the top right yeah yeah but once you get down into it and I mean that that's where the beauty lies you know I worked as a Grand Canyon backpacking guide for about 10 years and I got to hike almost every Trail inside the park and lots of off-trail routes as well and the thing that I love the most about guiding there wasn't just the fact that I got to wake up. In Grand Canyon but what you see within the inner Canyon you would never believe exists when you're standing up on top like if you think it's beautiful from the rim wait until you get down inside it because it is it is walking into the Earth and then you walk out the other side a little bit different.
Tayson: I would second that um my parents actually had gone to the Grand Canyon just a few weeks before I had gone and hiked it and they had actually said things like oh it's all right you know and but you know growing up in Utah like you see a lot of Landscapes like this and so they're cats it's good like but they but they weren't like hyping It Up by any means and so I you know when I went and you know just sitting at the bottom like this is ten times what they had experienced at the top right and and I had a just a completely different experience with with that right so I would totally agree with that that um if you've been to the top you know go to the bottom and experience. That right but and along with all of these unique features of of the the Arizona Trail what are like the season dates so like if you're going to start in the spring or if you're going to start in the fall what are some of those dates maybe to be aware of that just allow you to extend the hiking season a bit yeah I feel like.
Matthew: Most people so looking over the past couple of years you know climates alone predictable it's been changing more but I think that if we look at what's been happening over the past decade most people who are going to hike Northbound in the spring usually start into February early March so while it's still dead of winter everywhere else is like prime time for getting on the Arizona Trail and Hiking North the trick is you don't want to start too soon because if you get too far north like north of the north rim of Grand Canyon if you get there before all the snow is melted then you're looking at a frozen landscape for almost 100 miles and sometimes that means post hauling and post holeing for a mile is the hardest thing you've ever done post.
Matthew: Holding for 100 miles is actually not possible so we see a lot of people drop out turn around you know and go back to the south rim and then call it a day so so I think watching the seasons watching the winter snowpack goes into kind of the planning thing you were talking about before but I think that you know March through May is a really nice Springtime Northbound and then in the fall in the Autumn season like right now we see people that start mid-september and then start hiking southbound and the goal is to get through all the high mountain ranges of Southern Arizona before winter really hits in the past few years what we've seen is that winter comes later doesn't come at all so the the Autumn season is a little bit. More stable and predictable whereas in the springtime sometimes it can get really hot really early or sometimes there's a surprise you know late winter storm but it's nature like you know you get what you get and you throw yourself out there and hope for the best.
Tayson: If if you were to recommend going you know south to North or North to South do you have a recommendation.
Matthew: I think for water and weather especially like stable weather things like that I think October is prime time on the AZT so starting um like trying to hike October November is perfect when it comes to weather and a lot of times we have such wet Summers now that the water is pretty reliable so that'd be my recommendation is do it southbound I mean you could also do it uh Northbound as well but most people are doing it southbound uh in the yeah October November.
Tayson: Okay so you would need a permit to stay in the bottom of the Grand Canyon is there any other times that people would need to worry about a permit and not that you have to stay in the Grand Canyon you could go rim to rim in a day if you're you know healthy or out you know are able to to do that it's uh what is that about 25 miles um with a lot of elevation so that is something you could do but is there any other permitting that people would need to worry about to complete the trail.
